I am glad we now have james516 here to tell everyone what is a IFB church. Actually, James, our churches doctrinal statement coincides very closely to the one on this site. It sounds like I am holding to the fundamnetals of the faith even among the KJVO's here.

I didn't know you had that ability (cf. Isa. 43:11). Did the Bible teach you that or did you mean to say something else?

As for 1 Cor. 1:18 that is a whole other discussion (doctrinal as well as grammatical). We can hash that out later if you would like (and the mods/admins will allow).

Your reference of me not being washed in the blood of Christ is a little unsubstantiated. 1 Jn 1:7 speaks of Christ blood cleansing me. So I guess I am washed in the blood of Christ. I hope I didn't disappoint you in that regard . If you don't believe I am saved, then why call me "brother"? Maybe I have misunderstood you (I truly hope so).

Does preaching have anything to do with getting someone saved?

{Romans 10:13}KJB God`s Infallible Inerrant living Word tells me it Does.



Also Greek Tim a link for CFB`s:



http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/fundfbns.htm


In Christ.

Brother Miller.

I wonder why, if you have "... a word for word translation like the KJB ..." we read in Heb. 9:10: washings when the Greek reads: baptismois.

The examples of "baptisms" that follow discuss sprinkling rituals, but that would not have bothered the translators, who were all paedobaptist. Had they been baptists, they would have been executed.

James, I am surprised you joined this forum. This forum, currently, has not made the KJVO issue a part of the fundamentals in their statement of faith. There has been some that have requested such a thing, but nothing has been changed so far. So does that make this forum a CFB forum? James, I consider myself extremely fundamental. I am a complete inerrantists, I believe in the 6 day creation (24 hr.), I believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ, I believe in His VB, I believe in His bodily resurrection, I believe in His full deity & full humanity, I believe in the Trinity/Tri-unity of God, I believe in the full deity of the Spirit, I believe in a literal return of Christ to establish His literal, earthly kingdom, I believe in salvation by grace through faith and nothing else, and I believe in eternal punishment as well as eternal bliss (I deny annihilationism). It is early in the morning and my coffee isn't going yet so I might have forgotten something. But, James, I am a fundamentalist and am not ashamed to say so.

If we follow your logic down its path, then that would mean no one could be saved unless it were w/ the KJV. Do you believe this? How far do you take it? Am I anathema b/c I don't preach from the KJV? Am I accursed if I don't use the TR in my study? Is my name removed from the Lamb's book of life b/c I used to read the KJV (grew up w/ it) but now I no longer do so?

Greek Tim you seem a bit confused on what a real Independent Fundamental {i.e.UN-Compromising}Baptist really is.

We believe in the following and to disagree is to ex-communicate oneself from the claim they are IFB`s.You are more on the side of Southern Baptist Convention and they are way off from being IFB`s and Rick Warren is the SB Pope.

Well Greek Tim which Bible-Perversion do you claim as God`s promised from generation to generation preserved Word for you?

Greek Tim will probably say in the lost originals or in the many per-versions I study????


{One of the statement of the faith`s concerning REAL IFB`s.}


1. We believe that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were given by inspiration of God: holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2Peter 1:21) The Scriptures then are without error or the capability of error. We believe that the King James Bible is the Preserved Word of God for English speaking people and that it is without error. We do not believe in double inspiration, but do hold high the promises of God to preserve His Word forever. (Matthew 24:35; Psalm 12:6,7)


Greek Tim:To be saved

#1.You must repent.{2nd Cor 7:10}-{Acts 26:20}
#2.You must confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him {Jesus Christ}from the dead and thou shalt be saved {Romans 10:9-10}

#3.The Child of God greek Tim also believes that God keeps His promises as below.

Mark 13:31
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
KJV


Ps 12:6-7
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
KJV


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
KJV


Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
KJV

We have the words of Jesus, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away." (Matthew 24:25). Also, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:1. The Lord commanded Jeremiah to "diminish not a word" that He gave him to speak. (Jeremiah 26:2). Jesus also said "If a man love me, he will keep my words." (John 14:23).


Greek Tim by your logic you dont have God`s Word or atleast your confused at what Bible they are in.

In Christ.

Brother Miller.

It would have been nice if you would have explained what a real IFB is. You gave a statement from some doctrinal statement, but it would have been nice if you would have cited it. Again, does that mean this forum is not fundamental b/c it is not in the SoF?

I don't know of anyone who would say that God is using His original inspired autographs for preservation (since they have probably not been preserved). Preservation would refer to the copies of the originals. So that is what I hold to as the preserved Word of God. I do not believe preservation transferred to a new language - English. Thus, I study the original languages and the copies of the originals that the text was written in.

Also, James, in your list of "to be saved," you mentioned #3 as a part of that list. I am assuming it is a part of the list to be saved since it is #3 and follows #'s 1 & 2. Is #3 in reference to the KJV? If I believe all the verses you listed yet disagree as to their reference to the KJV, did I come up short hitting only 2 of the 3 on the "to be saved" list? I believe every promise God's makes in His Word, and I try not to add anything to them. You cleverly avoided my questions as to the KJV and salvation. Could you please clarify your view and answer my questions?

I am not sure how you can make that statement since I have been asking you more questions than giving you statements. Unless you have read every post I have made (I doubt it), I bet you don't know all of my views. In fact, that can be seen in the fact that your last post you asked me a question. Maybe you should continue the questioning before you claim to understand my logic.

Greek Tim wrote:

I don't know of anyone who would say that God is using His original inspired autographs for preservation (since they have probably not been preserved). Preservation would refer to the copies of the originals. So that is what I hold to as the preserved Word of God. I do not believe preservation transferred to a new language - English. Thus, I study the original languages and the copies of the originals that the text was written in.

Also, James, in your list of "to be saved," you mentioned #3 as a part of that list. I am assuming it is a part of the list to be saved since it is #3 and follows #'s 1 & 2. Is #3 in reference to the KJV? If I believe all the verses you listed yet disagree as to their reference to the KJV, did I come up short hitting only 2 of the 3 on the "to be saved" list? I believe every promise God's makes in His Word, and I try not to add anything to them. You cleverly avoided my questions as to the KJV and salvation. Could you please clarify your view and answer my questions?


{Brother Miller comments}

I believe to be saved is in Christ alone plus nothing GT. If it is the right message given to a lost soul .Faith in Christ and Him cucified {i.e.the message of the Cross}You are either saved RT/TR or you are being saved Corrupted/MSS it can`t be both GT.

You say:

{Quote}Preservation would refer to the copies of the originals. So that is what I hold to as the preserved Word of God.{Unquote}

Would that be the RT/TR or the C/Mss?

Remember GT if you dont believe that the RT/TR is the truth about salvation {Which Are Saved 1st Cor 1:18}then you are only being saved.Look in the Bible you trust as God`s preserved Word that you fail to mention as your rule of faith and practice.


In Christ.

Brother Miller.

I checked the TR and the so called "Corrupted/MSS" in 1 Cor. 1:18. They all say the exact same thing. There is no textual variance in that verse. I am not sure what you are driving at in bringing the TR, UBS, N-A, or whatever into this matter of salvation.

As for preservation, I believe all the copies of mss are a form of preservation. You have got to remember, not 1 single mss is in perfect agreement w/ another. Thus textual criticism is important now as it was w/ Erasmus.

The work has already been completed. Now we just need to trust the finished product.

So you say. But it would be arbitrary on the part of God to allow more ancient mss of the text to be found and not studied or used since we have the finished product. Are these newly discovered mss found used by God to tempt or mislead Christians away from the finished product? Or perhaps God is not in contorl of man's archeological discoveries and these new discoveries leaked through? Well, obviously God does nothing arbitrarily, He does not tempt or mislead, and He is omnipotent/sovereign/& omniscient.

So where does that leave us w/ these newly discovered mss (check out this website for an example: http://www.csntm.org/Albania2007.aspx)? Are they useful? Do they help? Do we need them? Should we just throw them away? Does God want us to know about them? Does God want us to examine them? Does God want us to compare them to what is already extant? What if the disagree w/ the TR? What if they agree w/ the UBS text? What if they are just another part of the wonderful truth of God's preservation of His Word? I am curious as to the answers to these questions from the KJVO's in here. I would even say that this is pertinent to the thread as it relates to the Word of God before the KJV.

I also find it ironic that the word "preservation" connotes something ongoing and never completed or finalized. It carries the idea of a process through time. At least it does to me.

This post was last modified: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:43 AM by Greektim.

I'm glad that you added the last sentence, because "denoting" is fact while "connoting" is in the mind of the reader, and not necessarily true.

From TheFreeDictionary.com: (editted for space and application)

"Preservation" or "preserving" is ongoing only in the sense of that the object being preserved continues to be as it was, not that it (the object) is not in a finalized form. The original Declaration of Independence is being preserved presently in Washington, D.C., (I hope). As far as I know, it has not been undergoing endless change. It is in its final form. Correct me if you know differently. You are closer than I am to its location.

God has allowed many discoveries which taken from a secular point-of-view only, "prove" evolution. Why would He allow that? (hint: faith versus sight)

You certainly know more than I about the more recently discovered mss. Have any been found that prove errors in the earlier critical/Alexandrian/eclectic/whatever Greek texts used by the ASV and early NASB? In which direction are the more recent discoveries taking the latest UBS editions closer to the TR, or away from the TR?

By the way, you use the term GNT as your preserved text(s?). Is this a generic term meaning the majority of mss currently being considered (UBS#x/NA-##), or is it a specific, single edition carrying the title "Greek New Testament"?

Last, you occasionally ask questions that appear to be rhetorical. I am not always sure which ones are seeking answers. The two questions in the first paragraph appear rhetorical. I counted 10 straight question marks in your next paragraph! Are you rhetorically speaking?????????? or do you actually want an answer?

For convenience, my red question is rhetorical, my blue questions are real questions.

Bro Tim, I want to give you a chance to rephrase this b/c I know you don't believe this. I like this statement but do you really believe that preservation of God's Word means that "the object being preserved continues to be as it was" or would you change it?

As to the "GNT" I have used it 2 ways. Through our email correspondance, I use the GNT as the title of the UBS Text b/c that is what they call it. Here, I use "GNT" generally to refer to the Greek text, mss, or compilations (depending on the context of what we are talking about) similar to the HOT. Sorry for the confusion.

Bro. Tim, I think you are on to something w/ the different colors for rhetorical questions and "real questions." You are correct, the questions in the 1st paragraph were rhetorical (obviously b/c they were absurd). The rest of the questions in the 2nd paragraph, I would love to hear your views (your being plural from all KJVO advocates here; I would use the thee/thou to differentiate but I don't know which is singular and which is plural).

This post was last modified: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:09 PM by Greektim.

GreekTim asked,

I'm trying to get into your mind here. I am guessing that you are going to say that changes of some type have happened to the text over time, including language, spelling, or anything else.

In specific connection with the Scriptures, I believe that preservation means that not a single truth, down to the wording and punctuation used to convey that truth, has been lost from the time that the originals were written until the final perfect presentation of the Scriptures now identified as the Pure Cambridge Edition (PCE) of the King James Bible (KJB). If the originals could be found and accurately translated, it would be found that nothing has been lost or added in the PCE-KJB. While the Scriptures for much of their existence were not in a single book, in these last days, God has providentially superintended the gathering together of His Word into the single edition that we have today in the PCE-KJB.

While I am thinking about it, why do you scoff at the use by some of us of the letters KJB instead of KJV? "(I love how they call it the KJB not the KJV)" [FSSL board] There is no official title, as you must be aware. I suppose that I could posit that the title New American Standard Bible indicates that a new Bible and not a new version of the existing Bible is being introduced.

And here I thought that you were a language scholar. But then again, you recently stated quite truthfully, "Davo, I often am wrong so it doesn't surprise me."

Brother Tim, you have to remember that I have scoffed of all our uses of the KJV vs. KJB & the NASB vs. NASV (cf. Inspiration/Preservation thread post #78 ). I do think it is funny. It is just like the often used titles like MV's, per-versions, and such which are similar to me getting a kick out of the KJV/KJB thing.

As to your statement, this is what you said (though probably not what you meant)

Do you not realize that this is inconsistent with preservation reaching a translation. The object is not preserved and "continues to be as it was" if you change the language. The thoughts might, but the text is not. Also, "down to the wording & punctuation" has changed from text to translation. Greek didn't use any punctuation in the earliest forms, that was added; and wording/word order is not the same in Greek as it is in English.

Ironic that you think of me as a language scholar. Notice my name is not Englishtim but Greektim. I study Koine Greek not Modern or KJB (does that make you happy ) English.

This post was last modified: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:57 PM by Greektim.

GT, I am well aware of the changes in structure that take place in a translation. That is why I worded my statement, which you did not quote in context, as I did. I will repeat with emphasis.

"I believe that preservation means that not a single truth, down to the wording and punctuation used to convey that truth*, has been lost from the time that the originals were written until the final perfect presentation of the Scriptures now identified as the Pure Cambridge Edition (PCE) of the King James Bible (KJB)."

* This phrase is emphasizing that even the smallest point of the truth is preserved, not just the general intent or thought, such as is found in the NIV as an example.