My personal belief is that the church started at Pentecost. But I realise some good brethren believe it began in the Old Testament, some say it started in Christ's earthly ministry and some even believe it began after Pentecost with the Apostle Paul.

So, what say you? When did it start?

Now, I absolutely disagree with the Church being in the Old Testament, but that is a discussion that pulls in an entirely different belief system. So we should probably try to steer clear of that option.

However, how important is it really, when the rubber meets the road, whether the church started at Pentecost or with Christ? Does it adversly affect other doctrines or practice?

Lastly, I believe, whatever the case, that Christ started the Church, He is its only Head and final Authority.

Stephen seems to think that the church existed in the OT, even more specifically prior to Sinai.

Actually, Stephen speaks of a called out assembly (Israel) in the Old Testament. But were they a called out assembly (church) in the New Testament sense?

Did they observe the NT Church ordinances? Baptism and the Lord's Table?

Did they have the Holy Spirit in the same sense as the New Testament Church?

Do they have the same purpose, commands, regulations and privileges?

I cannot see any way that the Old Testament Israel can be equated with the New Testament Church.

If one defines the church as the "body of believers", then Stephen's use of the word fits.

In the New Testament the church is not defined simply as a body of believers.

Add this to my other unanswered questions:

Is Christ spoken of as the Head of Israel?

Is there salvation in the Old Testament?

Were Jews saved in the Old Testament?

From the above quotes we can see that only those whose names are in The Lamb's Book of Life are saved. All those whose names are not recorded are not saved.

Moses name was in the book.

Thed names of Daniel's people were in the book.

Those who were written in the book, must have been believers, or Christians.

The old testament saints looked forward in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, whereas we look back to his finished work. We are all saved in the same way.

There is only one church which includes Jews and Gentiles, OT and NT.

You skipped all my questions, created one of your own and then closed the post.

Is there salvation in the Old Testament? Yes.

Were Jews saved in the Old Testament? Yes, and some Gentiles too!

Then you make the supposed link by saying they were believers, then you call them Christians, and your conclusion is that there is one church old and new Testaments. Kind of reads like the missing link in evolution to me.

I don't mean to be rude but you have ignored all my questions, created one of your own and then made connections where Scriptures give no authority to do so.

Would you agree that the Body of Christ is the Church?

If so, how do we get "into" the Body?

I suggest the answer is found in I Corinthians 12:13.

Then we read in Acts 11:15 that the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles just like He did the Jews "at the beginning." Peter ties this in with Christ's promise to baptise us with the Holy Spirit.

Now, there are some clear links.

I Cor. 12:13 - We are baptised into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit
Acts 11:15 - This first happened at Pentecost, the beginning, as promised by Christ

Clearly the church is a New Testament entity, started by Christ when He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Uh-oh, I know where this is all headed.......

Love you both,

Jim

Brother Martin, you are exactly right.

When I made my last comment there, I could foresee a possible turn on this subject to What exactly "Israel" is/was and therefore moving into a eschatological debate.

I completely agree that the NT church started with Pentacost.

Maybe we are seeing a difference in semantics only?

I think everyone maybe ought to define what exactly they mean by the term "church" in this current discussion.

Just a suggestion.

Love in Christ,

Jim

When I try posting an answer, I get the following message:

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I'll look into it.

I have tried to post a couple of replies to this and each time received the above error message.

I cannot remember all that I posted but two of the questions I have follow.

These are genuine questions to which I do not know the answer.

1.) Was Zacchaeus an OT saint or a NT one?

2.) In the following quote, what was our Lord referring to when he mentioned the church.? Was he speaking of the OT church or prophetically about the NT chiurch?

I would say Zac was an OT Saint.

Christ did speak of the Church before it began, but that is not to say it was already in existance. He also spoke of the Tribulation and Millennial reign, but that is not to say they are already in existance.

I beleive His comments about the Church were part of the organisation and structuring of the Church that He would build after His death and resurrection.

Brother Martin, I have stayed clear of this to this point. Suffice it to say I believe you are completely correct. Dragging things across dispensations (time lines) such as from the Old Testament to the New Testament is what often causes false doctrines to creep into our Churches. I find it clear from the Bible the Church did not exist until Pentecost. All it takes is a little study with the attitude of open mindedness rather than looking for ways to dilute and deride the local New Testament Church.

In Christ,
George

It is something I have re-evaluated recently, someone came to me with some questions I could not immediately answer. So I went back and looked at the whole issue again.

From the Bible it does seem clear.

Good to hear from you George.