Matt. 16 is future because Christ uses the future tense when He says "I will build". There is no "could" about it. If you just look at the Greek... oh wait, nevermind, I almost forgot who I was talking to. And Christ wasn't referring to post-Acts 2 because Peter clarifies Acts 2 as the beginning (Acts 11:15-16).

As to the present in Matt. 18, Christ was teaching a principle on how to act in a scenario (notice the scenario qualified with "if"). Prescriptive action is best taught in the present tense (though "tell it" in verse 17 isn't even in the present tense in the Greek but translated that way because it is an imperative; also vs. 17 is a scenario as well w/ the word "if").

This post was last modified: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:15 PM by Greektim.

Some others view ekklesia in Matt 18 to have a general meaning like "assembly". That is a viable option if you are willing to look back at the Greek. Personally, I don't have a problem with Matt 18 teaching ecclesiological doctrine. Just throwing that out there.

I have a question brothers.

I had discussion on another site regarding Judas Iscariat. The poster said that Judas was a bishop of the Church. I countered this by saying that
1. Judas left the last supper before the Lord's supper was instituted and
2. Judas died before the church was instituted in Acts 2.

However Acts 1: 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

These seem to be the references in the Psalms.


Ps 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

Psalm 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

Could someone comment on this please?

I think several words in the New Testament show the transition and development of language. For example, the word we have specifically for church was a word used for practically any group, political or civil, that gathered together. When the meeting ended they were no longer an assembly or church. By the middle of the NT we find those who are part of Christ's body are a part of the church whether they are gathered together or not. The language had developed to fill a need.

Anyway, all that to say this. I think with the words that describe church leadership, pastor, elder or bishop, I think there are instances where you have the word used for the office and sometimes for the function.

As well, Judas may have held authority as one of the apostles, but not authority in any local church as we know it.

Just some thoughts.