The disciple's of Jesus, Paul and the Jews are the elect of God. God has cut out unbelieving Jews for unbelief. He has included Gentiles, when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. We are saved by grace, because it is what Jesus did on the cross that saved us.

Kind of like anyone purporting free-will lacks selflessness.

The idea of free-will simply states that we of ourselves have something to do to merit our salvation. As if the Lord sees anything within us to say, "There, that man is a good man, so I will save him". This is sacreligious in my opinion.

The greatest maturity a christian can obtain IMHO, is to be brought to the point of recognizing the enormity of their guilt, and surrendering their entire being to Christ alone. The Calvinist doctrine of grace alone(ironically this is exactly what you are saying) is reflects that surrender, free-will(or lack of total grace) does not.


Here is the point of your irony:

Free-will does not support this statement. Free-will says there is something else beyond grace (human requirement) to obtain salvation, that it is not of God-alone. So what exactly are you trying to say?

Love in Christ,

Jim

There is a middle ground between grace and free will.

We can still believe, we can still be baptized by water, and follow the one we love and still be saved by grace.

Why because we have not paid our debt, which is death.

Jesus paid our debt.

We can do all those things for the Lord and never pay our debt.

We have freedom to follow Christ to live for Him and be depended on Him.

We are not depended on ourselve, but on Him.

Men say we cannot not do anything because of the curse, that Jesus got rid after His resurrection.

Faith in Jesus Chris without deeds is dead.

Romans 5:

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

We no longer live a life to save ourselve we live for Jesus so that other may see our good deeds and praise our Father in Heaven

Are you advocating salvation through faith AND works?

Can't someone just quote Scripture and profess belief therein? Faith with out works IS DEAD (emphasis mine)...that is a fact, indisputable by anyone (it can be "disputed" in word, but not in substance) for it is Scripture--PURE quoted, untainted.

One can say "We have free-will", and another can say "We have no free-will", and both can have some Scriptural "support"...obvously one is wrong. But when you QUOTE the indisputable Word of the Most Holy--Then you are right.

My work for my salvation is death. Nothing else can save me.

I can't pay my debt, so I have to put all my trust in Jesus and let Him direct my path.

If I believe that Jesus payed my debt and it doesn't change my life, then I don't truely believe at all.

How can I live the life I was did, knowing the cost of my salvation was the blood of the one I love, Jesus Christ.

Okay, but what good is faith wothout works? Is it not in vain? The devils believe, and tremble. Faith without works is dead.

I have a challenge for you.

Show me your faith without your works, and I'll show you my faith BY my works.

Even demons believe that there is one. That will not save you.

Matthew 10 :
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.


34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[Micah 7:6 ]

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Yes but this is the verse used by the RC church..which seems to contradict the verse that it is not of work, lest any man should boast.........

I really don't think it matters who uses a verse...It's still True. We can't say that it is any less true or any less valid than the fact that we are saved by Grace, and not of works lest any man should boast. HOWEVER, we must also understand that James and Paul were talking (writing, I should say) about precisely the same thing. You see, if we could get the revelation of what Grace is we would understand that these two men (Under the Control of the Holy Ghost) were writing the exact same thing, just using differant words.

You see--Paul wasn't saying that we, in essence, don't have to be good...that's just how a lot of people choose to interpret his words. He was simpley saying that the things we do unto Salvation (for there ARE actions unto salvation...I am more than happy to give Scripture for this, just ask). Furthermore-we don't get good to get God (as they say) we get God and THEN He is good through us (for no man is good, but the Father in heaven is). One can't "Hail Mary" his sins away--God does that through His mercy, but let us never forget that He also has the Power that after He has pardoned our sins that He can cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. People like to quote that "A righteous man falleth seven times..", but they leave out that the reason is that our righteousness is as filthy rags and forget to mention that Jude wrote (under God's inspiration), Jud 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"...This is the Power and love of the God with which I associate myself (only through His mercy--for I was, am, and ever will be unworthy...faultless or not!). I don't believe this "Everyone sins a little everyday" stuff is Scriptural. All HAVE sinned. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying (for those of you who read and care), no man is "without sin", for all have sinned...but that does not mean that every man has to sin...If we did God would never have commanded us to be perfect!! What are the Gifts for?? For the perfecting of the Saints...My hunger for righteousness is not quenched, indeed it only grows stronger as I grow neerer thereto...Some will call me haughty, I'm not- judge me by my fruits (which is hard, but not impossible on the internet).

I love you guys (I really do), I've never met any of you (as far as I know), and I've never even read a lot of your posts--I don't have to.

Aye. Good post brother.

You must believe all of the word of God or you make God into a liar, and that scripture is the truth.

Belief is a requirement by the word of God and this faith without deeds is dead, but we are still saved by grace. The rquirement of our sin is still death.

Belief again.

Let's understand the greek word for "believe"

The typical understanding of the word "believe" even by most professing christians is number 3(mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith).

The understanding that we need to have in a christians life to better reflect what believing is, is 1 & 2:

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith)

We need to make sure we have the right belief when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the biggest problem that most people face on the doctrine of the calvinists is the fact of predestination being an arrogant thing.

I will also state, as brother Ray has said, that I do not actually call myself a "calvinist". So many people just cannot go throughout life without attaching a label on things, so that they can discriminate. Not that being discriminatory is a bad thing, but labeling limits that person to whom you are discriminating to being none other than what you have labeled him as psychologically.

It is very ironic how predestination is considered "arrogant". If anything, it is the most humble state of recognition a christian can obtain according to God's sovereignty.

I think some things about calvinism really need to be cleared up. the term "hyper-calvinism" was created by the opposition because the doctrine of TULIP could not be understood by them, so they stretched it, and claimed it to be something it was not.

One of the problems is that most refuters don't understand that predestination does NOT mean that everything in this world is set and cannot be changed, therefore there is no need for evangelism. The doctrine of predestination is a glorious one that recognizes God's sovereignty in choosing whom He will and will not save(Romans 9:14-21).

Free-will is a selfish doctrine of man that believes he should be able to use his liberty to do as he chooses according to salvation.

If we look at freedom, we understand that everything has a price. So are we truly free? God forbid.

Let's just say that in every single solitary case that the ideaology of freedom has worked against us.

What does fleshly man do with freedom? He abuses it. It is a vicious circular cycle that continually repeats itself. There is no way we can learn from our past, and we will always repeat our failures because of this abused freedom.

If we look at our christian liberty, we must understand that we only have that liberty as guided by the Holy Spirit. Do you actually think that we have full christian liberty if we are living according to our flesh?

Do you think our Lord Jesus Christ, our Sovereign Federal headship is truly going to allow you, as a christian, to just walk around doing what you want according to your flesh? That is NOT what christian liberty is.

The thing christians have to understand is that you are bought with a price. That price is the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The idea of salvation with "no strings attached" needs to be understood. Of course it is a "free gift", but the problem with most christians is that they believe they can get a free ride. You cannot glorify God with your body, unless you allow the Holy Spirit His perfect work. If you go on thinking about yourself, you are glorifying yourself, not our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is what is talked about when it is said that if you quench the Holy Spirit long enough, the Lord will eventually TAKE YOU OUT. He will not allow you to continue dishonoring His name with the continual defiling of His temple(selfishness).

You are a representation of the Lord God in your body and every day life. Why would He allow you to continue thus?

People today need to have a better understanding of what salvation really is.

Free-will is a selfish humanistic doctrine. Salvation is by God-alone, and it is His gift to impart to whom He will, not by anything that person has merited, or by anything that the Lord knew that person would or would not do.

The plan that will not change, is God's ultimate sovereign plan that we have no say-so in. If that means that He will send certain people to Hell, and to save other people to accomplish it, who are we to say anything against it?


Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


Love in Christ,

Jim

This post was last modified: Mon Feb 20, 2006 03:06 PM by Jim.

I want to state one thing unequivocally so nobody misconstrues something.

Calvinism does not state that it is known who will and will not be saved. Evangelism is extremely important to be done for all, so that the elect is reached. We have no idea who that is. That is determined by God alone, and we much reach as many as possible. We are not the salvation. We are simply the instrumentation the Lord uses to reach the lost with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ,

Jim