I'm a young Pastor who loves to learn, teach, discuss, and write about theological issues. I am a Refined/Strict Dispensationalist for all those who care (or even know what that is). I am against the KJV only view so I already know I don't fit in here very well. I like to think I am balanced between the Calvi and Armi views of soteriology. I love Koine Greek. I am actually a Greek Geek. I wish Hebrew was as easy as Greek. And I have the most beautiful wife to help me in the ministry.

I went to Piedmont Baptist College & Graduate School in Winston-Salem, NC for my B.S. in BIblical Studies as well as my M.A. in BIblical Studies. PBC is the best school ever and I plan to return for my PhD.

I look forward to engaging in gracious debate to come and help others come to the truth of God's Word.

This post was last modified: Wed Mar 19, 2008 03:52 PM by Greektim.

You're right you won't. I find that the more "learned" people get, the worse off they are.

Ouch, that kinda hurt. Am I "learned" or worse off? When iron sharpens iron, I guess the friction will be painful.

No, no, no. I meant that in a general way of a lot of scholars.

I have seen so many people that used ot be KJV< but when they started getting "Greek" instruction, they waned. They let their "scholarly" abilities hold sway over their moral and rational convictions.

I certainly did not mean that personally, that would be a major fault of mine and very foolish to say.

Love in Christ,

Jim

This post was last modified: Wed Mar 19, 2008 03:10 PM by Jim.

I was never KJV< (what does the "<" mean) and I went to Bible college where they only used the KJV (mainly for communication purposes so everybody had the same translation). I arrived at my conclusions on my own study. I don't make it a point of personal separation though. I already knew that those who hold to it are unlikely to be changed just as those that don't hold to it are.

Welcome, GreekTim, from Brother (English) Tim.

I look forward to the serious discussion that we can have about the texts. I would ask one request and three questions to begin.

The request is that each of us respects the opinions and beliefs of the others. This topic can get heated very quickly if we don't show Christian brotherhood. If you come with the idea of convincing us, don't waste your time. If you are coming to learn more of why we believe as we do, then join in.

The questions are: What version(s) do you use primarily? Why did you choose it/them? What caused you not to accept the KJB as the best/only text to use? The answers to these will help us to know where the starting line is.

May God's Grace be with you,

I don't plan on convincing anyone about anything. Most people that care enough to write in something like this will be firmly established in their own views to be unswayed. In disagreement, I find I solidify my view more b/c it forces me to work it out even more. I also find that I understand my "opponent" better b/c I see where they are coming from (similar to what you want to know about my view on translations).

I will say up front that I don't believe there is a perfect translation. That is why I was concerned with learning Greek and Hebrew. With that said, I mostly use the NASB or the NKJV. I chose those 2 translation b/c I think they portray the original language with the most accuracy. Of course I know that the issue then becomes which text represents the original language the best. That is why I use both the NASB & the NKJV. They represent the 2 popular options (UBS 4th rev. ed. for the NASB & the TR for the NKJV). I don't agree w/ all of the UBS 4th rev. ed. text nor the TR.

To asnwer your last question, there are many reasons for this. I don't think the KJV represents a consistant literal translation (Rom. 6:2 "God forbid" being a great example). KJV also did not have the best translation resources to use (such as good lexicons). For instance the KJV uses the word "unicorn" 9 times but of course there is no such thing as a unicorn (I retract this argument). Thus I think there are better translations. As far as the original language text used, I don't think the TR accurately portrays the originals in every verse (1 John 5:7-8 being a great example). This is by no means a comprehensive list. There is more things I could say, but this is not the place to discuss all of them. I have no doubt that these issues have been discussed, but that is my view. I hope that helps with where I am coming from. I absolutely respect others' opinions just as I expect you to respect mine. I too look forward to serious discussion.

This post was last modified: Tue Mar 25, 2008 08:02 PM by Greektim.

This is a bold statement. Where do you find indisputable proof to be able to say "no such thing"?

How much have you looked into the scholarship of those men who were used of God to produce the KJB? Your reference of yourself as a Greek Geek. These men literally lived the language. They didn't need lexicons, they were lexicons.

You have used the term "originals" and "original language" several times. With your educational background, certainly you realize that there are no "originals" with which to judge the validity of the TR versus the UBS.

Let's move the discussion over to the section/forum called "Bible Versions". Pick one of the threads or start a new one so that this thread doesn't get too scattered. Thanks.

I was told by Jim that this issue has been debated and beaten to death. I don't want to start a new discussion on this issue if I will get in trouble for it. If he says its ok, then I will do it. I would like the opportunity to respond to the remarks made, but I don't want to make trouble (at least not this soon =-)).

I cannot speak for Jim, but I personally don't consider honest, charactered dialogue to be making trouble. As you have done with a couple of threads, check out what has been said in the past, and if you have new ideas, or want to comment on prior statements, please feel free. Lively debate is profitable for everyone, when it is done with brotherly love. When we are writing, sometimes it is hard not to sound like we are arguing. Some have misunderstood that in the past. It works when everyone maintains not only the attitude of humility when writing, but long-suffering when reading.

Case in point: When I re-read my previous several posts in this thread, it sounds a bit like I am "getting in your face". That is not how it would sound were we sitting down together in person. In my ministry as a pastor/teacher, I constantly challenge my students to defend their position. It may be how a math answer was derived, or why creation should be accepted over evolution.

I look forward to much discussion, Brother.

THanks for that last reply. That is encouraging to hear. My wife tells me all the time that people can easily misinterpret how I was writing something as harsh instead of humble. I still want to make sure that Jim doesn't mind it. Maybe if you started a conversation on one of the issues I mentioned, then we can begin.

Okay, let's start with one. The topic would be the "error" of using "unicorn" in the KJB, thus demonstrating its lack of available knowledge in translation. I will copy your paragraph and my question as a beginning. I will put it in the "Bible Versions" forum because of the general topic of translational accuracy. See you there.

P.S. I am getting ready to go to work, so I'll check in tonight.