Particular Redemption (aka Limited Atonement) questioned

[Mongol Servant]

PeterAV Wrote:Most Calvinists believe that the offer of salvation is to all, yet, efficaciously to those whom he has chosen.
God is true when he moves upon those that he knows will not turn unto him.
The offer is real.
But there are conditions to be met.
Faith in the Gospel.
The Gospel preached.
The Holy Ghost wooing.
These are some of the main conditions.
We all have a free choice at all times, to choose either good or bad.

Jonathan Edwards' work on the freedom of the will, is the pinnacle of the subject.
It takes a bit of work to read because his sentence structure is long.
It easily can go up to two paragraphs before he has put a period in.
It is almost like he covers the subject inside out at each statement.

He really stays on the subject well.

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Pete,
Read post #16 of this thread - there's a reference to the pinnacle on this subject. Edwards had some things correct, but Dr Vance nails it down.

[RobNC1966]

While I do not have a clear understanding of Calvinism, I do believe that I can lend to the original discussion of "Limited Atonement".

Limited atonement, in my opinion, is something that would negate Christ's work at Calvary.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Christ's own words here would seem to indicate that ALL mankind has a right to salvation, not just a few.

Look at the Jewish nation. If limited atonement meant that only the "elect" receive atonement for their sins, then why are the Jews considered "God's chosen ones"? They reject the Savior who died as the atonement for our sins, yet God places them in a special place and reserves a historical opportunity for them in end times. The Bible clearly indicates that the nation of Israel will "return to Him" in the end times. Does that mean Jesus' sacrifice was not meant for the Jews? If that were true, then where do the rest of us fall?

Jesus didn't pick and choose who He died for. He died for ALL sinners, and not just the elect. What would make someone a member of the "elect"? I certainly was not worthy of His sacrifice, yet I know beyond any doubt that I am a Blood-bought child of God, and that Christ's sacrifice at Calvary was meant for me, for you, and for anyone who would accept Him.

Also, I want to comment on something that I read earlier about being "His people".

We may not be of the "Seed of Jacob", but remember that we are all of the same seed, historically speaking. The Gentiles received the same sacrifice that the Jews received, and we are all "God's children".

[Brother Tim]

The hyper-calvinist conveniently fixes the problem of "all" by redefining it and the word "world" to fit his doctrine, at least the one I debated did so.

It is convenient also that the teacher of "particular redemption" always sees himself as one of the elect.

[kingjamesman]

I was wondering what some thought of my videos I did on Calvinism as a false gospel. Check YouTube and type in "Calvinism false gospel" and you should pull up three videos by Steve McCalip. Also would like to know what some think about my anti-Calvinism articles on my site at kingjamesman.com

[Brother Tim]

Steve, because your doctrinal position on the Godhead does not match the statement of faith on this board, we might not be the best ones to evaluate your teaching in other areas. We see your doctrine as a false gospel as well.

I did scan your site and looked at one article. I must say that I have never heard a trinitarian try to use the three men who visited Abram as a manifestation of the trinity. That is a horrible interpretation if there is someone who believes that way, and I doubt that any serious students of the Scriptures would even consider it as such. I would be curious as to where you found that belief.

[Davo]

Brother Tim Wrote:Steve, because your doctrinal position on the Godhead does not match the statement of faith on this board, we might not be the best ones to evaluate your teaching in other areas. We see your doctrine as a false gospel as well.

I did scan your site and looked at one article. I must say that I have never heard a trinitarian try to use the three men who visited Abram as a manifestation of the trinity. That is a horrible interpretation if there is someone who believes that way, and I doubt that any serious students of the Scriptures would even consider it as such. I would be curious as to where you found that belief.

The bible does not say there were three wise men, just that they bore 3 gifts. There could have been two or four or more. Could also have been three.

[Elder Moore]

Brother Tim,

I understand your confusion with what the brother said and could see how it may seem confusing. I could make a request using the word "whosoever" in the following manner to demonstrate my point of view on this subject.

"whosoever will, please come to dinner at my house tonight." I can assure you that only those with a desire to come to my house for dinner will show up. Therefore, the invitation was only to those with a desire to come to my home, not to those with no desire to come to my home.

I also would like to comment on the subject of John 3:16 and what the brother was making reference too. It is very common for most persons to assume that John 3:16 is a direct INVITATION, however, when one examines the ENTIRE text, it becomes rather clear that John 3:16 is not an invitation but rather a DECLARATION.

I will add that the verse begins with the word "for" which leads us to the verses prior to it concerning Moses and the lifting up of the serpent. In that particular case, with Moses and the serpent, the only persons that benefitted from looking at the serpent were those that were bitten, not those that were not bitten. In John 3:16 the wording is "whosever believeth" not "whosoever will believe"

In addition, a person that believeth is a person that already is in the act of believing, not getting ready to believe or willing to believe. If you recall the situation with Lazarus, the Lord said that "he sleepeth", I am sure that you agree that the apostles thought Lazarus to actually be asleep, of course the Lord knew better however. Regardless, when you add "eth" to the end of the word it becomes someone who is in the act therof, for example, eateth, sleepeth, heareth, believeth, etc.

In reference to the "world" referring to those for whom Christ died, ie (limited or particular atonement), the brother that spoke with you in regards to this matter is correct, however, it is in direct reference to the GENTILES. Often when we go to meeting we will sometimes make a reference to "the world", I have often heard brethren say things like, the "world" does not know what we have here in the Church, the "world" hates the church and wants nothing to do with it, etc and so on.

It is this use of the word "world" that Jews used in reference to the GENTILES. Therefore, when the Lord spoke these words, he was very openly stating something to the Jews that they were not prepared to accept easily, "He was also here for the Gentiles" and "the literal nation of Israel, the Jews were not the only Children of God!" The Gentiles or the "world" was also included by adoption.

In addition to the use of the word "world" you will find that Kosmos means, (orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) Therefore, we can conclude that according to Strongs it can be used in the way that I described above.

Furthermore, if you will carefully read the book of John you will find other uses of the word "world" in which the Lord "prayed not for the world"John 17:9

John 14:17 "the Prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me, "even the Spirit of truth; whom the WORLD cannot recieve...

John 15:19"If ye were of the WORLD , the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the WORLD,but I have chosen you out of the WORLD, therefore the WORLD hateth you"

Now taking into consideration the verses above ask yourself this question. Does this sound like the same WORLD that the Lord is "offering" salvation to in John 3:16?

I hope that I have given you something to chew on for a little while, I understand that you and I do not see things in the same manner but hopefully through these discussion we can either disagree in peace and Love or come to agreement.

Yours in hope,

Elder Moore

[Davo]

While I would not call myself a Calvinist, I would call myself "Reformed." I would not call myself after any man.

Christ died for thed Church.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Predestination was not a popular teaching in Jesus day anymore than it is today.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We are on ho;iday in France at present, not far from NOYON, may pop over there tomorrow before we return home on Tuesday.

We went there a few years ago, to the Calvin museum, it was very interesting.