the rod and our children?

[kereena]

What do people think about the rod and young children, do we need it today or not or do we need to recpect what god says?

[Jim]

Just as God never changes niether does His Word.

Our times change constantly, mostly for the worse, but that does not mean that we change how we obey God's Word.

Using a rod to discipline our children is spelled out in God's Word as true. If we do not chasten or correct our children by using the rod, then we are not obeying God's Word.

A rod is best described as what I call a switch. It is a light, flexible piece of wood that stings, but does not bruise when properly applied.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[mnwickens]

What type of behaviour would require corporal correction?

If not corporal, then what repurcussions are there for seriously rebellious and eventually destructive behaviour?

I do not think of it as punishment, but rather correction.

[Jim]

That is exactly right brother.

Anytime I go to spank my children, I make it very clear that they are not being "punished", but rather it is a "correction". Punishment will occur in eternity.

If correction cannot occur, God has ordained government to "punish" at this time here on earth.

Unfortunately, the justice system has lost sight of this and is apparently feeling like people can be "rehabilitated" through the prison-system, but this is a subject for another thread, so please disregard my comment.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Grizz..]

Beating a child is one thing, but correcting a child is a totally different issue. reasons why is:

1. If one beats a child, it will turn that child to wickedness, but correcting the child will turn that child to God.

2. Beating a child will turn the child against the parent/guardian,but correcting that child bring them closer to the parents/gaurdians and that child will have more respect for them.

3.Beating a child is crueland that child will grow up with hate in their hearts, but correcting the child is loving the child and when the child gets to be an adult they will look back and have loving emotions toward their parents.

This is fact dear people.



"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." Proverbs 22:15.

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die" Proverbs 23:13.

"The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame." Proverbs 29:15.


God Bless,
Grizz..

[milly16]

I never liked spanking's, but I think my parents everyday for the discipline they gave me. I wouldnt be who I was today without it. Trust me, I think I have the spanking record.


"sorry for the spelling"

[Bro Nobody]

We run an orphanage with former (phy and sexually)abused street kids placed by the state, before coming to us, all had been beaten but not corrected.... without "correction" there would be no change in hearts. I say to them often when you learn to control your attitude then I won’t have to...

If administered correctly and in correct measure correction yields a peaceful spirit, many times loving spirit.. afterwards. Yes measure, to fit the heart of rebellion. Sometimes hard, other times mercy might be needed. Godly wisdom must be heavily relied on. If correction is from anger or overdone it provokes wrath of the child. If not done up to measure it provokes disrespect and dishonor in a child. As with all things in moderation like a powerful medicine used at the correct dose for the correct times and correct disease. The LORD has bless with wisdom in so many things here that I would rather have lived my whole life in ignorance about…

I use to teach it as a banking system to our teachers in SS school for bus ministry kids. Don’t discipline the bus kids till you have placed something in their spiritual bank account. Time with them visit them and their families ect. If they’re bad in class and you cannot deal with them correctly send them to me….my class was always full. I was also the disciplinarian yet the kids showed a love and respect. (I was also the one throwing tvs out the 3rd floor window as sermon illustrations too…)

One house rule: No lies. If you lie to papi it is automatic discipline. Why? Because a lie is needed for all sin.It reveals the heart. If the lie is forsaken then it becomes difficult to sin. You must lie to others, yourself or to God(at least try) in order to sin. Hence the biggest house rule is No lies...

[George]

Do we need it today? Well let us see now, if I recall correctly it is in my Bible. That leads to the obvious question of just exactly who is it that has the authority to tell us which parts of the Bible we can ignore because this is now and that was then? Is that not akin to these "churches" with women preachers? Their attitude is that the prohibition against women teaching and also the teaching let your women remain silent in the Church is old-fashioned and not appropriate or applicable any more because this is now and that was then.

You see, in MY Bible it indicates that God's Word does NOT change.

In Christ,
George

[IM4given]

Okay - speaking as an adult child who was beaten often and regularly with a two inch wide leather belt from my shoulder blades to my ankles(from age 7 to age 15), all the while my step-father sadisticly quoted scriptures - what makes everyone think that "spare the rod and spoil the child" method of child abuse is in the Bible? If I cried, he would whack me even harder and more times with the belt - so I learned to never shed a tear, out of sheer spite if nothing else, while the abuse occured. I left home when I was 15 years old and I have not spoken to that man since.

Okay, yes the Bible does say "rod" but isn't it the same exact rod that shepards use when they are with their sheep? Do shepards beat their sheep with the rod, or do they use it to guide the sheep away from dangerous places? I have not been around that many sheep, but I think the Bible has been completely misinterpreted throughout the centuries, by cruel, evil, sadistic men who derive a certain amount of pleasure from toturing their children and even their wives by this method.

I have trained my children without the use of corporal punishment - by imposing rules and guidelines with consequenses, such as losing priveledges or a favorite toy for a specified amount of time. So far, it seems to have worked out okay.

[George]

Regardless of personal feelings corporal punishment is in the Bible and it is there for a reason. However physical abuse is not found in the Bible. I was raised by a mother who used to severely beat me with anything she could get her hands on. she used cat leashes, wooden coat hangers, wire coat hangers or what ever was handy. Believe me I deserved discipling for the things I did but physical abuse is not discipline. One thing I did learn from those exeriences is that not once did I ever raise my hand in anger against either of my children. The cycle of abuse was broken with me.

In looking at corporal punishment it is not really suppossed to be punitive in nature but corrective, I have a dear friend in Church who has 4 boys. You will not see a better behaved bunch of boys anywhere. All it takes is a certain look from their father and whatever it was he was unhappy with ceases immediately. The primary reason for this is he was not afraid to apply corrective action when necessary.

In Christ,
George

[Upholder]

IM4given Wrote:Okay - speaking as an adult child who was beaten often and regularly with a two inch wide leather belt from my shoulder blades to my ankles(from age 7 to age 15), all the while my step-father sadisticly quoted scriptures - what makes everyone think that "spare the rod and spoil the child" method of child abuse is in the Bible? If I cried, he would whack me even harder and more times with the belt - so I learned to never shed a tear, out of sheer spite if nothing else, while the abuse occured. I left home when I was 15 years old and I have not spoken to that man since.

Okay, yes the Bible does say "rod" but isn't it the same exact rod that shepards use when they are with their sheep? Do shepards beat their sheep with the rod, or do they use it to guide the sheep away from dangerous places? I have not been around that many sheep, but I think the Bible has been completely misinterpreted throughout the centuries, by cruel, evil, sadistic men who derive a certain amount of pleasure from toturing their children and even their wives by this method.

I have trained my children without the use of corporal punishment - by imposing rules and guidelines with consequenses, such as losing priveledges or a favorite toy for a specified amount of time. So far, it seems to have worked out okay.

IM4given, I can understand how you must feel as a result of what you went through as a child. It is a terrible thing for any child to suffer.

But no matter how much some parents may abuse their authority, the Scriptural principle of corporal discipline still stands.

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13,14)

Notice, it doesn't say "Beat him with a two-inch wide leather strap" or "Bash him senseless", or anything like that. I am personally uncomfortable with the term "corporal punishment", because punishment implies judgment and retribution. The correct use of the rod is for correction and discipline - not abuse.
As Brother George puts it so correctly:

George Wrote:In looking at corporal punishment it is not really suppossed to be punitive in nature but corrective...

And that's very true. If done correctly, corporal discipline will not cause a child to grow up to resent his or her parents. I know this from my own experience. I grew up in an unhappy home, and my parents are now divorced. But both of them wanted the best for me, and they used the rod when neccessary. The "rod" in this case was usually a wooden spoon - never a strap or anything like that. I look back now and I am thankful that they cared enough about me to follow the Biblical method of discipline, and I harbour no resentment for it whatsoever. If they had abused me, I would think very differently about them.

[George]

Quote:Okay - speaking as an adult child

This is one thing that I overlooked and I appologize for it. The term "adult child" is a term that has been constructed and very widely used by the modernist/post modernist psychobabble community that is suppossed to explain away all of the problems we have in our lives. It is a load of baloney in my opinion.

In the first place it is not scriptural. One is either an adult or one is a child and must present themselves as and be held responsible for whichever of those they are. It is similar to Christ's teachings that man cannot serve two masters. We are either one or the other.

Of course this involves blame also. If we can put the blame for things on something or someone else we do feel better for a while. For a while being until it comes back with a vengance to bite us again. For years the psychologists and psychiatrists had me believing the reason I was a drunken drug addict was all my mother's fault. After all, she beat me so it couldn't be my fault. It worked for me.

It worked well for me until I was able to face the reality that the things that happen in my life are what I make of them. Certainly God supplies the methods and the means but it is what I do with what He has given me that makes the difference. I could have gone through my life continuing to blame my mother for my extreme behaviour or I could look at the reality of the fact there is no one or no thing that is responsible for the shortcomings in my relationship with the Lord; just me.

IM, I do not write this to be offensive to you. I write it as an explanation of my own experience and as explanation of reality as found in the Bible and not the product of Sigmund Fraud and his minions. The world got along perfectly fine for hundreds of years without Sigmund Fraud and his weird ideas. How did they do it? They used the Bible as the basis for their counsel. The motto of First Baptist Church this year is: "In All Things, Christ." In ALL things, Christ.

Oh by the way, since I got passed myself and worked diligently on my relationship with the Lord my mother and I have become fast friends. I can't help but believe it must be a great load off of her shoulders to know she is no longer responsible for the unholy mess I made out of my life because I was an "adult child" of an alcoholic father and an abusive mother.

In Christ,
George

[Bro Nobody]

I hesitate to post this but It greaves me to read the things I see here.
Which is worse to be beaten your entire earthly life for one little sin or an eternity in Hell.
If we are beaten our entire lives it does not even pay the debt for one sin… It would barely be the just reward of our actions. Like the thief on the cross. Everything this side of hell is a blessing. Hard thing to truly understand.

I shared a story with one of our orphange children a few years ago when she had been told by a court psychologist she had suffered a lot. Without a lot of detail lets just say people are in jail for 25 years and we are dealing with a 12yr old diagnosed with aids and hep c.
I told her that’s not true. Let me tell you of 2 women. One was born to a wealthy family. She grew up with many friends and went to all the best schools Her family was close and she was in want of nothing. Every want and desire was fulfilled, the happiest of childhoods. She marries her college sweetheart and they live a storybook life and raise lots of children. Her life was always her family, She poured everything into them and they into her. She rarely had time for the things of God nor set her mind in that direction. She comes to the end of her long sweet life and children grand children and great grandchildren are around her praising her as she drifts off and passed to the other side and lifts up her eyes in torment not knowing the Saviour…

The second woman was born to a prostitute mother who sold her in a 3rd would country. She was sold, abused, beaten and used all the days of her life. Unloved by anyone. She even sold herself just to eat a meal. At 25 she is in the socialized dirty hospital alone dying of aids. She picks up a piece of paper from the ground and struggles to read a long lost tract. She cries out to Christ to forgive her and save her. She dies that night and is lifted by angels to the presences of God.
Tell me which woman had the better life?
She answered “the second one” with tears in her eyes. I continued, “You told me once you liked some of the attention you were receiving and for a year when I drove by your neighborhood I asked you what was going on and you would not tell me though I could see it in your eyes. You were hardened to the things God. Had God not let these things happen you would, you have ever come here lived with us and asked Jesus to save you? No. You have not suffered you have been blessed. Thank you papi with a hug and tears. Rom 8:28 is true. She also now has a love for those who abused her.
Her abuse includes heavy scars burnt from the hip to ankle(thrown in a fire as a baby, cut wrists, broken fingers, welts from her head to feet and sold from the time she was little for beer and cigarettes…
We put such a cheap price on salvation because we think its free, its not free, ..but it is a gift….