Is the doctrine of total depravity self defeating?

[mnwickens]

Is the doctrine of total depravity self defeating?

Someone asked me the other day how a totally depraved person would have the knowledge they were totally depraved?

I am not sure of the original author my friend was reading or the full argument, but it seems interesting.

Any thoughts...

I am not saying I am for or against it, just looking for some thoughts.

[Jim]

I think it absolutely is, and that is good.

I believe the basic premise of the doctrine of Calvinism is to recognize the idea of "self" removed as far as possible from the person according to total depravity, and place the soul will of Christ as it's all-in-all. And yes, I think that is wonderful. Unfortunately, Calvinism is not solely the answer to the denial of self. It can just as easily cause pride in a person by the trying to attain humility, just as easily as it can be used to try to recognize God's sovereignty.

I do certainly believe in the total depravity of man. I believe the bible is clear on this.

It all boils down to the heart, as just about everything does. The recognition of total depravity can cause true humility in the humble heart, yet it can cause arrogance in a proud heart. Both have the look of humility, but can manifest itself differently in different hearts. Only the heart changed by the Lord can recognize and act on the doctrine of total depravity properly.

So to answer your question, yes it can be self-defeating in a good way...or a bad way...it depends on that persons heart.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Pilgrim313]

Total depravity is so foreign to mankind! and mankind truly hates the Gospel and the way it puts man's face in the dirt, so to speak. No one other than a saved person would ever admit being totally depraved, as you can not learn of it until you read the Truth about 'man' as portrayed in the Bible. The Bible doesn't gloss over our sinfullness, doesn't make the people chosen by God to be glossed over super stars, but rather portrays them in the Light of God's Truth. For instance, Abraham lied, set up his wife to protect him, yet was a man of God, David comitted murder, adultery, lost his throne to a biligerent son, yet was a man of God, Noah spent 150 years 'listening' to God, built the Ark, saved his family, yet thought nothing of getting drunk....but was a man of God. The list goes on and on, but the people are all totally depraved. We have to be actually otherwise we don't need a Saviour, good people think they can save themselves!
Pilgrim

[Bro Nobody]

Total depravity is a false way of stating it. Since God is Holy, any sin you have makes you unholy. Gods standard is pure holy undefiled. By this standard we are cut off from a “relation” with God but not from the influence of God. God has chosen to redeem us through the Blood of Christ. So in effect it is not by our quantity or quality of our sin that makes us deprived. It is the cut relationship that makes us this way.

Total depravity is like absolute zero kelvin degrees you have no heat, an impossible state in the current universe
There is no such thing as cold just the absence of heat….
Or absence of the influence of God to be totally deprived. That day will come, but is not yet for those still breathing, for God still has influence, power and authority. All things were made by him and for him

EVERYTHING this side of Hell is a blessing….
Now reprobate that is a different concept... it is closer definition to the idea of total depravity but I am sure a calvinist would not want to be a reprobate...

[Davo]

Was the fall total, or only partial?


It it was total, then we are totally depraved.

If it was partial, the please explain how?