Modesty-Why is this not being taught in the church?

[Laurie]

Can someone tell me why modesty is not taught in many of our "fundamental" churches?

[Agur]

Well, if I may allow me to express my thoughts on this "controersial" issue.

First off, let me just say that I am glad every time I see the add for "Modest Apparel" on this web-page...It let's a guy (or "gal") know what you believe as it pertains to clothing.

Now, let me start by saying that the Church which I attend teaches very strongly the concepts of "modesty"...as it pertains to women dressing like ladies and men dressing like gentlemen...both in Church and everyday life. As a result of this fact--the Church I attend (and consequently...the entire denomination) is atacked as being "shovanistic", "restrictive", "pharisitical", "legalistic", and the sort. (Even by "Churches" and "Denominations" that claim to be "fundemetalists" and "evangelical", like baptists, methodists (methodists used to have very strong modesty standards mind you) and other "reputable" denominations---they call us a "cult". I am not a member of any "denomination" because I don't believe that there should be denominations, but I attend a denomination that as far as I know has the strongest holiness standards as it pertains to conduct and modesty for both men and women. (Howbeit in this age people will point at the supposed "restrictions" of women seeing as that has become taboo in this age, and leave out the fact that men are also advised in modesty)

SO THEN...my point is simpley that "fundementalists" often times don't want to be labled as the Church I attend is labled (see previous paragraph)...it is a worthy sacrifice to many of them...I hope to God that more like yourself will come up in this generation and "demand" that holiness is taught just as it was in the days of the Apostles.

[Jim]

Quote:Can someone tell me why modesty is not taught in many of our "fundamental" churches?

Probably for the same reason it is not taught in many churches anymore, period. Humanism has crept in, and we've let it.

I would say it is the fact that many pastors have become soft in church discipline and do not want to offend a man by telling him he ought not allow his family to dress like that, himself included. Modest dress applies to men too, men out there who are reading this.

The quote on modestapprelusa, is a very good one:

"Because a modest woman is a beautiful woman." How true that is!

What other reason does a woman dress immodestly except so that people will desire her looks, e.g. her flesh?

A modestly appareled woman shows her inward desire to serve her Lord, if in fact, she is saved. She should be desired by men for her devotion to Christ, not because of her outward appearance.

Yes Laurie, you have brought up a very good, yet tragic point in today's churches.

This is something we should not allow.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[ledbyhishand]

This is a good post. Modesty and humbleness is something that seriously needs studying.

I know when I hear men speak on it they seem to like to sit on fences afraid to offend someone. Which to me I feel that you'd be better off saying nothing at all if you can't give us clear scripture.

A question I have about it though.

Some people believe modesty is a woman wearing a skirt/dress and nothing else -- no trousers allowed. Yet I have went to Christian conferences where the odd girl's skirt is so tight a little movement and it would rip, or it was way too high. So is that modest?

is it possible to be modest in a pair of trousers? Is it possible to be not modest in a skirt?

Excellent topic and interested in future posts.

LBHH

[Agur]

Well, allow me to write what I know, what I have experienced, and what I think.

The Church to which I go does not only encourage that women wear skirts or dresses, but they say it is unScriptural NOT to. I can't say that I am completely in agreement (this is why I refuse to claim a denomination). HOWEVER...I would encourage a woman to wear a skirt or dress if I had the opportunity to do so.

Can a skirt be immodest? YES I see them a lot (even on occasion [not commonly mind you] in the Church I attend). Slits, short skirts/dresses, and tight skirts/dresses (or dresses with short/no sleeves) are all immodest. And in this day and age they are coming up with dozens of ways to make skirts/dresses immodest everyday...it's evil.

Can pants be modest? This is a tough one for me. I believe that it is wrong for a woman to wear "man's" pants (please...don't ask me to define "men" pants for you...Pretty much every article of clothing in this planet is made for EITHER a man or a woman [i.e. not both]...One knows when one considers). Now with all of that in mind (it's bad when a "disclaimer" has to be longer than the statement) I haven't seen very many women's pants that are modest...they are practicaly non-existent, the only ones I have ever see that I would include as modest are the ones that are mde to look like a skirt in the first place.

This is how I feel.

[ledbyhishand]

Agur, liked your thoughts.

Just a question again, I guess I should be giving my thoughts too, but dont' really know them to be honest . Been an ongoing discussion with my friends, anyhow

what is modesty?

I guess there's different forms of modesty yet one form will affect all others.

Like what does one consider modest in Character?

Modest in appearance

which can be broken down, when it comes to a woman's hair, what is modest?

Comes to jewellry and makeup can that be modest?

About clothing what defines trousers as not being modest?

These aren't judgmental questions cause well I'm a guy. I have no right to be judgmental on what a woman does unless I have a good grasp of scripture explaining it, then even then a judgmental attitude would probably do more harm then good.


My personal preference in what I feel scripture says on hair, is that it's to be long and not cut, (for women ofcourse)

as far as makeup. If God wantd pinker cheeks and such He'd of done it. Make up I find not modest, it covers up what is real etc.. Notice it's an opinion, no scripture on it posted yet.

As far as jewellry. If it's not serving a very good purpose (such as a watch) then don't have it.

About dresses/ skirts. I personally prefer a dress/skirt on a girl. But are trousers really wrong? ofcourse the spandex ones or really tight ones are wrong, that's not modest, but say for example. Some women even with a decent skirt if they sit down or move to even be comfortable is it always going to be modest? where a pear of trousers perhaps it can be?

I know even 20 years ago pants were strickly for men, and dresses for women, and still to the core of our culture it still is (notice bathroom stalls). But like what about even in New Testament times. They all wore robes, there were differences though. What about old Scotland. The man wore a kilt the woman a skirt.

A lot of cultures the man and woman wear identical things yet are considered modest, yet at the same time there is an appearance of what the woman and man is wearing where you can tell the distinction.

Anyhow just spilling some things I've been thinking about, will stop now.

Glen

[Agur]

This is good for us all...for it helps us to examine what we believe, why we believe it, and even should we believe it. Also it helps us to understand what others believe even when we don't entirely agree on something.

Quote:I guess there's different forms of modesty yet one form will affect all others.

Yes, they go hand in hand, but are different things. One modesty is simpley the lack of pride, vanity, and or haughtiness. The other (the one I think that we are specificaly in reference to) is in appearence...not trying to impress one another with skin (intentionaly or [for those who are unfamiliar with the concept] unintentionaly). It is both courteous (for those of us who are human and can fall into lust if provoked!!) and obedience (1st Peter 3).

Quote:when it comes to a woman's hair, what is modest?

I think the answer to this (from me) would be..."Don't go "extravagant". I think it's okay to have ones hair "up", but purples reds (and even mabey natural color hair dyes...like you said, covering up the true beauty God created) Obviously Gold plaiting isn't popular anymore, but the Bible taught concepts...these are more powerful because that means that we can apply them for ever--so the Values of Christianity never die (I get off on rants...sorry).

Quote:Comes to jewellry and makeup can that be modest?

I agree that jwelry that is useful (watches...MABEY wedding rings if desired, are "modest" seeing as they serve a purpose) but if one wastes a lot of money on even the useful "jewelry" that is against some other concepts.

As for makeup...I don't get the point of painting a perfectly good face. I love the natural beauty of a woman, and don't see the purpose in painting it up..some use it just to cover up "unsightly" "marks", this is worse for the skin in the long run and only results in more unsightly marks..so it is vain. I wouldn't encourage the use thereof.

Quote:About clothing what defines trousers as not being modest?

I wasn't very specific in my statements previously. The reason I don't find pants well for women is this...Women jeens and pants are usualy at lleast two of three things, One: tight (see "chic" and like brands) the problems are more obvious here. Two: light (I mean in material not color) this makes them seem "less there" hard to explain..if you think I'm being too extreme feel free to disregard this on of the two..it is rarely alone in it's use. Three: focus (this is the obvious use of emblems and catchy pictures, patches, or logos/sayings in immodest areas) to do this is to use a womans body as advertisements for your product (mabey the woman knows, and mabey she doesn't...it's wrong both ways)
Which, brings us to the pants that look like skirts (not skorts...because they're short, but "skants" [I made that word up!]). They are not tight (which over 90 percent of women pants {including young [i.e. 5 year old and on up] girls pants} are) they are usualy not light, and it would be hard to utilize focus here (but I'm sure it has been done in this age).

And let me end by saying...All clothes that are made for regul,ar use are some how intended for use by a man or use by a woman...A woman could wear a pair of "modest" pants that were opriginaly manufgactured for a man, but that goes against a commandment of God (unless you feel that the Old Testament was done away with). So if a kilt is made for a man, then a man should wear it...IF IT"S MODEST...the same goes for a woman (in my opinion) as it pertains to pants.

I think a woman in a skirt should be careful to sit modestly.

I love you guys!

[Laurie]

Modesty is a matter of the heart attitude. And should always be done with a sweet spirit. I have seen women who dress modest but judge everyone around them for not having the same convictions and they are as ugly and immodest as a women wearing jeans and mens boots. It should also be done from the pulpit with a spirit of teaching and help not judgement. I also think once it is taught is should be implimented in the church by the leaders (teachers, deacons, etc)
As for pants: If a lady can find pants that look like womans apparel and are not form fitting. Go for it. I have seen women wearing jeans that are modest but they look like dumpy men.
One must always considers others in all things as not to cause another to stumble. The church should be a safe haven for all who attend, especially the men. They should not have to come to church and be bombarded with tight fitting clothing (including skirts and dresses) on the ladies. They get enough of that in the world.
Just remember, we are raising ladies. The world bombards our young girls all day and night to either act like men or to seduce them. Shouldn't the church teach these young girls how to be a biblical woman?

[ledbyhishand]

Been thinking of that commandment a lot as well in the Old Testament about a woman wearing that of a man. If you study it closely it doesn't just mean clothing, it's the whole appearance.

but no I am a bit stuck on wheither it applies to us or not. Like for example some laws were given to keep a nation for the Messiah to come to. one being the way they dressed. Cause at the time the nation was surrounded by paganism, transvestism etc.

You read is it in romans about how the law affected the gentiles as well within themselves. It was their conscience, but was that the whole of the laws? Or just the foundational ones such as the ten commandments? Gentiles obviously weren't abstaining from certain things and didn't seem to have a problem living like they wanted, contrary to what God wanted.

It's rather confusing, but sure it can be easily explained if studied enough. Which laws still apply? or do any? In galatians we read that the laws were made to show our failure. So I guess the one concerning the dress of a woman is more of an instruction. Is it an instruction of today?

I think perhaps the context of the verse and chapter is to show a seperation from the nation and the world. If the woman and man is dressing in a way that shows a difference, like .hmmm no beer logos, no logos in spots they shouldn't be, etc then that's seperation. or is it the full ....skirts and nothing else.

Anyhow seem to be thinking as I go. Enjoy your posts agur on the subject.

[Agur]

Yes, as I said...this is a tough one. I find myself divided at times.

I would not say that God commands only skirts...just modesty and women dressing like women.

And as it pertains to the standards of dress set forth in the Old Testament and whether they are for us today.
Deu 22:5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God."
Now, if we put that in it's context (with other "general commands") I would say it is with other commands that pertain to General Holiness...not tradtional holiness. By tradidtional holiness I mean the following of rituals and the observence of commands given directly to the Jews for only the Jews (and the Stranger within the gates!) Many people feel that (although they won't say it like this...they teach it like this) when Christ came He put to end large portions of the law (some feel the whole thing...but that is rare). The only question is how mauch. I disagree...I don't believe that this is what He came to do nor what He did. Look at what He preached as it pertains to holiness..."...unless your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees....", notice what He was saying in everything He expounded that day in that famous "sermon" (the sermon on the mount). Every law that He expounded on He MAGNIFIED, but then He took the judgement out of men's hands when He said "...turn the other cheek..." and "...judge not..."---So that's what I feel He did. Howbeit allow me to say that Christ never once magnified "ceremonial" law, and gave little heed to the superstitious precepts that the scribes and pharisees had added (like ceremonial hand washing etc). Surely this is what Christ was come for...not to do away with the Law, but to magnify it as was prophesied (yes prophecy actualy said that He would Magnify the law and make it honourable [Isaiah 42]). This is not to change the law even one little bit, for when you magnify somethiing you simpley get a closer look at it...You see things you hadn't see before {"...you have heard....but I say..."---do you see my point?}. So aside from ceremonial law and things specificaly covered...We just have a magnified law THE LAW OF GRACE. This will seem like a contradiction to some one who has listened and learned what Grace is from many...because Grace is not unmerited favor, but that's for another post I suppose.

So to answer your question with my World view (that which is listed above)

Quote:Which laws still apply? or do any?

The laws that deal with general holiness...that deal with conscience, not ritual...and yes some do apply, we must let the Holy Ghost tell us all tyhings and bring us to remembrence of all that we have learned from God's Son.

[Jim]

Quote:Modesty is a matter of the heart attitude. And should always be done with a sweet spirit. I have seen women who dress modest but judge everyone around them for not having the same convictions and they are as ugly and immodest as a women wearing jeans and mens boots. It should also be done from the pulpit with a spirit of teaching and help not judgement. I also think once it is taught is should be implimented in the church by the leaders (teachers, deacons, etc)
As for pants: If a lady can find pants that look like womans apparel and are not form fitting. Go for it. I have seen women wearing jeans that are modest but they look like dumpy men.
One must always considers others in all things as not to cause another to stumble. The church should be a safe haven for all who attend, especially the men. They should not have to come to church and be bombarded with tight fitting clothing (including skirts and dresses) on the ladies. They get enough of that in the world.
Just remember, we are raising ladies. The world bombards our young girls all day and night to either act like men or to seduce them. Shouldn't the church teach these young girls how to be a biblical woman?

Very, Very well put!

Quote:3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
3:2
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3:3
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

It is difficult for christians many time to differentiate "commandments" vs. convictions of the Holy Sirit within us. I think it very interesting how we really try to obey "commandments" showing that we truly need, seek, and even yearn for direction and authority in our lives.

Certain guidelines are given throughout the bible to maybe help better explain what we are to obey under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Here we see the subject of "adornment" coming up. This is directed specifically to women, not that man should dress immodestly, but directed to women nonetheless.

As long as we have a heart that desires to fellowship with the Holy Spirit, then I do believe that the Holy Spirit will guide us in our glorification of Him, whether that be in speech, dress, worship, or anything else. If we do not have that heart, then we have those guidelines to which we need to be under to help us as new christians. If we do not seek to serve God at all, then our problem does not lie in dress, but in the heart alone which must be transformed first.

I will however disagree with one thing. I do believe we have the right to judge matters according to this. Of course not with a judgmental heart, which I believe Laurie to be referring to, but as a concern for our brethren. If a christian is not being convicted of his/her lifestyle(this includes everything secular), then isn't there a serious problem here? And should we not address it in meekness?

Therefore we should, I believe, judge things like this.

Quote:1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Agur]

Yes, I would "concur" with the above.

I feel that there are certain commandments still (because you were right when you said we need them), but a lot of people like to manifest their own personal convictions (such as Sabbath observance or consumption of coffee/"unclean" meats and so on) as though they are commandments for all. I would not argue with a man who said that he was called to keep the Sabbath (Seventh Day) because the Bible (in the New Testament even) deals with this issue in depth..."....some regard the day....some regard not the day....let every man be fully persuaded...". It is very important that we get this concept (as I may have stated earlier...God seems to teach in concepts because they can last for eternity...whereas rules fail in application as new doors open). Just my pennies.

[mnwickens]

My position would be to teach modesty. That may be the appropriate trousers or skirt/dress/robe/camel skin...

Many in my circles are against women wearing trousers but I personally do not have a problem. My wife will not wear trousers because that is what she believes.

Why is modesty not being taught? (Let me stress I do not necessarily agree with these, but they are the reasons I have seen.)

1. Sometimes it seems other issues are more important.

2. They do not believe the issue is of any importance.

3. They are afraid of the reaction.

4. They want to seem modern and cool, and modesty does not put modern and cool as a priority.

I think harm is done to the modesty cause when it goes to an extreme. When some teach that to be modest you have to be purposefully unattractive it hinders the argument.

When it is almost taught that trousers are not the right uniform and for that reason some women do not go to church then that is wrong in my eyes.

It seems you can look up to date and even fashionable to a degree without compromising modesty.

Modesty, by the way, should be considered by the men as much as the women.

[George]

I find it quite fascinating that in my new life as a Christian I find the ladies wearing long skirts and dresses, full sleeved or blouses/shirts which have sleeves, little make-up, very little jewelry if any at all, etc., are MUCH more attractive to me than the women of the world.

The reason I find that fascinating is that I was an alcoholic and a drug addict for about 38 years. I was entirely into the world. Every aspect of my being was worldly.

Now I find that the young ladies (and some not so young ones) who go about with bloouses too short and pants not high enough resulting in all sorts of things hanging out look not only ridiculous for the most part but actually repuslive to me. The things I used to lust after in a woman are no longer attractive to me.

That being said I am not that terribly hard on modest clothing. For example the Bible says it is a sin for a woman to wear man's clothing, i.e. pants or trousers. I have a girl friend who is a beautiful modest dresser. She occassionally wears pants. I do not object. It is only occassionally. However when she does wear them they are not the tight fitting ones that the worldly women wear.

It amazes me when I see the things people wear to Church on Sunday. I also do not know why our pastor does not say something. Even the men seldom wear ties. Some of our deacons do not wear ties and jackets to church.

Those things I find wrong but I am but a lowly servant and have no say-so in the matter.

in Christ,
George

[Agur]

Quote:I think harm is done to the modesty cause when it goes to an extreme. When some teach that to be modest you have to be purposefully unattractive it hinders the argument.

Amen, often times I have heard of such notions, and they are as repulsive to me as those whop say things like "...if you've got it, flaunt it..." and similiar foolish sayings and ideas. For someone to basicaly for all intents and purposes to say that God's sons and daughters are not to look as beautiful AS HE CREATED THEM to be--that is blasphemous, one ought to take care of themselves, and ALSO to take care and not be sloppy about his/her looks--this is a great evil, I believe--but commonly ignored.

Quote:I find it quite fascinating that in my new life as a Christian I find the ladies wearing long skirts and dresses, full sleeved or blouses/shirts which have sleeves, little make-up, very little jewelry if any at all, etc., are MUCH more attractive to me than the women of the world.

Amen again. I have had similiar life experiences as you in the past, and have found that this is true in my case as well. Sometimes I even feel guilty because I am a young man (21), and the Church I go to teaches modesty thouroughly (and yes the Church believes in Skirts/dresses ONLY for women, however they don't "command" it as a prerequisit for attendance, but rather just give their support for it from the Scriptures and leave it up to the Woman [probably with some advise on the side, but that's a guess seeing as I am young in the Church as well], but personaly--as stated--I am somewhat divided on the issue)...As a result of my new "ways" find the modesty so common in this surrounding appealing...and I know that a lot of people will try to say that this is "normal" and/or "okay" for anyone (especialy a young man), but I feel that this could be wrong...Going to Church one should have his mind on God and only God, but I have found that I often start thinking about "talking" with so-an-so, or something of that nature. Not that I think it's wrong to talk in Church, but the differance is pretty obvious (although one could say they don't see it...it's there.). This is kinda' disturbing for me, but I guess I got WAY off of topic and took this thread for a loop. I am gonna' post this anyways because if I delete it...I won't feel right.