PLEASE help me understand: an open request

[Razorbuck]

I know that the "calvinism debate" has been chugging along for centuries between the brethren, and that while no "new" arguments can be presented here, new ground can indeed be broken in my heart (and other hearts as well) by the application of my blessed Saviour's Word rightly divided. I also know that volumes and volumes have been written on this subject (I have prayerfully studied many), so one might fairly ask, "Why begin the debate anew here?" I would answer that I do not wish to debate, but rather understand the sincerely held beliefs of respected brothers in Christ. Therefore I make the following plea: If you hold the position of what is commonly referred to as the TULIP, please help me understand from scripture why. I would ask anyone willing to reply to exegete certain scriptures in light of their belief.

I'm certain many would hesitate to reply to a topic that has been so often covered (and sadly, often contentiously) but I would deeply appreciate a Christ-honoring discussion on what is for me at this point in my sojourning, a heart-rending question.

yours in the true light of our Saviour,

Razorbuck

[Jim]

Brother,

I too am very new to the TULIP doctrine and from what I have been shown by the Holy Spirit thus far, it seems to be very true. I too will enjoy this. I must admit that I have been afraid of pursuing this question, but rather trying to study it on my own. Thank you for bringing this up as I am willing to learn also from those who know this doctrine in and out.

Love in Christ, and may he put a watch at our mouths and a guard at our lips.

Your brother in Christ,

Jim

[Raymond]

RazorBuck, I appreciate the question and your ability to keep a level head about it.

First off, I dont call myself a Calvinist. Thats a nickname men call it.

The point that I want to make from scripture is this.

Quote: Romans Chapter 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Gen 21:12 Gal 3:16 Heb 11:18

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:14

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Gen 25:23

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Mal 1:2,3

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Exod 33:19

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Hos 2:23

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Hos 1:10

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Isa 10:22

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Isa 10:22,23

29
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Isa 1:9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Many people read romans chapter 9 and try and explain everything away. The question people need to answer for them self is what was Paul trying to say in verse 19? He raised the objection that he knew would be in the minds of the reader of this epistle. "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" If its according to election Paul, then how can God find fault?

He answers his own question starting in verse 20. He knew that what he was writing to the Romans would not be recieved well by everyone. Paul knew what he was saying and he knew there would be objections. So he wanted to answer them before they were even raised.

Peter also wrote of Pauls writings. He said this.

Quote:2 Peter Chapter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I believe the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is one of those doctrines that are hard to be understood. Our finite minds just cant wrap itself around it.

This does not negate our responsibility to go and tell others about Jesus Christ and the salvation He offers because God has ordained it.

Quote:1 Corinthians 1: 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Quote: Romans Chapter 10: 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

There are many other scriptures that deal with election. Its something that you just cant dismiss.

I pray that this discussion can stay reasoned. This topic does tend to elevate peoples emotions. We are all brothers in Christ. Please keep that in mind when posting any replies.

Peace
Ray

[Jim]

And another powerful set of scripture that gives us understanding of this subject:

Quote:Ephesians
1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1:12
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1:15
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

1:16
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1:19
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

1:21
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

1:23
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Raymond]

I want to post this link to a sermon that I think answers at least part of your question. Calvinism- What it is and what it is not

I hope this is helpful.

Ray

[Razorbuck]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for your thoughtful replies. I am sorry it took so long to answer, I have been working out of town and have limited time online. Also, y'all gave me a lot of scripture to digest!

I sincerely appreciate the spirit of your generous replies to my query. Your hearts are bare, my brothers, and I rejoice in the compassion of our Saviour that I see there.

The tone of your replies lead me to believe that you each embrace the five points of the "TULIP", am I correct? I also believe you both to be elders of the church in the scriptural sense, and I would venture to say you both have been walking with our only-wise Saviour longer than I.
And herein lies my dilemna...

I know that sanctified, God-fearing brothers in Christ such as yourselves believe that the biblical teaching of election speaks to salvation as well as service. I have studied the Word, read volumes authored by better men than myself, sought understanding through tearful prayer, and still cannot find peace in accepting that teaching. I studied your excellent scripture references anew (I have studied those passages many, many times before) praying the Holy Ghost reveal to me what I am missing, but to no avail.

I have a friend, a beloved brother who holds to reformed doctrine. After listening to me witness at a restuarant to a young man, he told me I should simply preach the gospel and never, ever tell someone that God offers them pardon, because I cannot know if that is true. I was so grieved in my spirit I could think of nothing else for days.

Brothers, I believe that my LORD draws all men to Himself. How can it possibly be that you and I can enjoy such unity in our understanding, but be at such polar extremes concerning this doctrine? This question haunts me hour by hour. Please pray the LORD grant me peace concerning this.

OK, on to a coherent question. (I thank you for your patience)

Assuming you believe the word teaches that our LORD in His infinite wisdom predestines some to salvation, in what sense are the false teachers of 2 Peter 2:1 "bought" by the LORD?

Can you exegete 1 Timothy 4:10 for me in light of your belief in a limited atonement?

In what sense does our LORD "draw all men" in John 12:32?

In Romans 9:22, if GOD fitted the "vessels of wrath" to destruction, in what sense must He suffer long?


PLEASE believe that I am sincere in my desire for the truth. I hate to argue, but love to learn. I wish to understand what my LORD is telling me through these scriptures and others. I look forward to your replies. Until then I remain

your servant in Christ,

Matt (Razorbuck)

[Razorbuck]

Oh, and thanks, Raymond, for the sermon link. I found much there to edify, though many questions remain...

[Jim]

I have a question. One I really don't know the answer to.

How can we pertain the doctrine of predestination to the fall of man(e.g. Adam and Eve)?

This is not a rhetorical question either, I really want to know.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Jim]

Razorbuck, your words thmselves have justified you I believe, and I see the heart of sincerity.

To tell the truth, I am new to the doctrines of grace (TULIP), and I still struggle with it from time to time, in fact, the biggest one being the same one you are struggling with, limited atonement.

If this can help read the following scripture:

Quote:John 17:1
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

It seems to me the key word(s) here are "as many". This phrase limits to a certain amount of people. The first reference justifies and states God's complete power over all flesh, the second subject denotes that he will give eternal life to only to those who the Father gives to Jesus(John 6:44). The "him" in the second subject reference in the 2nd verse of course is referring to Jesus himself in the third-person.


In reference to here:

Quote:In what sense does our LORD "draw all men" in John 12:32?

Quote:12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It has been purported that the "all men" refers to the elect who will be saved from institution to ending. I also have questions about this too brother, as it has not been settled unequivocally in my heart via the Holy Spirit. Don't feel alone.

I think that the "bought them" in 2 Peter 2:1 is referring to the entire bondage of death over all men. Jesus' sacrifice was toward all mankind, yet it was death itself, its penalty, and the chained bondage it had on all men, that was overcome.

If we look further to verse 12, we see them being likened to "brute beasts", which were "made(created) to be taken and destroyed."

Quote:2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

So we see the only reason we see the likening was because of the reason that they(beasts) were specifically created to be destroyed.

It almost seems like a contradiction doesn't it?

And then 1 Tim. 4:10

Quote:For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

specially of those that believe. Specially, according to the greek word "malista" means : 1) especially, chiefly, most of all, above all.

So what do we conclude?

And in reference to Romans 9:22, I am still studying it.

Brother, these are excellent questions, to which we need to find the answers.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[freeindeed]

Wow, gentlemen:

I was both surprised and excited to run across this thread--and on a Google-search no less. I am studying the very-same thing, and I just wanted to write that I look forward to reading the correspondences to come. I do not necessarily feel all that "qualified" to contribute, but I certainly do not mind if I come up with something worth sharing.

I must be honest with you all: I find Calvinism very uncomfortable, and nothing would please me more than dismissing it altogether. I neither like believing that I do not have much of a role to play in what happens to me, nor that God is holding an "un-elect" accountable for something they cannot help anymore than I can rid Africa of Aids.

That expressed, I am more concerned about truth and how to minister to others than I am with making myself feel comfortable. So here I sit, joined with you brethren in a united interest to know our Father in Heaven as intimately as He will permit.

What I know is this: Sometimes taking "authority" over a situation with bold faith yields the answer to prayer that I want. Sometimes it does not at all. Sometimes people are healed when you lay hands on them; sometimes they are not--and even die, in fact. Sometimes you can minister salvation and the individual accepts Christ; sometimes they do not.

I have always been taught that sin and free-will sort-of "screw up" what God would like to do in someone's life--that His perfect and specific will for a person can be unfulfilled. Yet it seems that when we try and bring good things into fruition according to God's Word (like healing or salvation), it does not always work. So my experience seems to conclude that "things" are not so simple. There is no "formula" for "Your Best Life Now."

So without the TULIP and without charismatic dogma and without presuppositions of any kind, I come to God's unadulterated Word for better understanding. Oh, how I greatly look forward to what is to be written here!

Your brother,
Chris

[Jim]

This thread actually has held a special feeling for me as I see in a sense men of bare heart seeking truth.

I have seen supporters of free-will and supporters of Calvinism still give their all and all to the Lord Jesus Christ. I wonder sometimes if this is really the core of our judgment?

Jesus always dealt with the hearts of people. I believe if a man has a heart that sincerely desires to serve the Lord, and seeks the truth in doctrine, the Lord will not let that man down.

May we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our studies. I have noticed that it really doesn't bother me whether someone is an Arminian or Calvinist if that person is truly trying to serve and worship the Lord in spirit and in truth.

I have met very devoted men, doctrinally correct from both camps. I think they don't really consider themselves one or another. I think the desire of a man to try to label himself with a doctrine or denomination can be more dangerous than a man that does not let labels limit the work of the Holy Spirit in his life.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[prayer_revival]

I think the only label still available is the word christian, (christlike), and christianity but unfortunatly today these tow words have lost there original meaning in the world of christiandiom, and often when God raises up an great leader in the church and bestows to him much light from the bible, there comes a fresh dispensation of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and as a result a spiritual movement is born and people start to lebel christians according to the name of their leader and denominations are born in the church. The first local denominations started in the 1st century in the corinthian Church some followed Paul, some followed Apollos, some Cephas and there were disagreements in the church, so the bible warns us of devisions, but still with all these imperfections as to doctrinal knowledge and devisions in churches, God judges us according to the light we have received in our heart through the word and Holy Spirit and if a church dwells in the Love of God there is God present.

Love and truth should go hand by hand, we need the love of God in our hearts without it we are nothing and we need the knowledge of God and the word of God to have right thoughts and doctrine but i prefer better much love in heart and little knowledge (which is demostrated by a holy living), then a head full of correct doctrine but lacking experimental knowing of God or has very little love.

[Missionary]

All of creation was created for God's Glory; Spoken into existence by the Word of God.
To Speak is to breath out, ?resonate? with a predetermined purpose. God?s Word, The Bible, shows us in the book of Genesis chapter one, ten statements of ?and God Said?. God had spoken with a predetermined purpose. All things God spoke into existence are to naturally resonate His Eminence back to Himself, ?and God saw that it was good?. But alas, there is one and one only part of creation that God did not just speak into existence. It was to be the Crown Jewel of creation. This jewel is unique in that it was not predisposed to return God His Glory. Therefore the glory it must be capable of, was that which is nearest to God?s heart. It was to be so special, God chose to form it in the very image of Himself. He gave it life, not by resonating predetermined words, but it was born directly from the breath of God. This new life was created a free moral agent, receiving the gift of choice, God called it man. This jewel was made with a free will, but with this free will came glorious and deadly consequences. If man was to return to God the Glory due him, man would have to exercise this will. Man must choose to Glorify God or Glorify self. When man resonates back to God the Glory God is shining upon man, God is Glorified to the Highest. When man deflects the Glory of God for ANY other purpose, this is using God?s gift vainly and therefore profane in the sight of God.
Psalms 4:2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing?

[freeindeed]

To "missionary" and everyone~

I do believe it is important to allow scripture to interpret itself. A clean sweep of God's Word, as a whole, is important since we can so-easily become lost in detail. I want to take great care in maintaining the correct perspective of Abba as I examine isolated verses to find truth, and so I am appreciative of this most-excellent point from "missionary." Thank you for the input.

I also appreciate what you wrote, Jim. I think you are right as well--the heart of the man is what God is after. That written, it is important to avoid becoming stuck in a rather pointless "rut" of sorts. It's just that when concerns for people AND for theological integrity seem to clash, the anguish only increases. The first priority, though, IS people. I refuse to loose sight of my brothers or sisters in doctrinal thickets. "Please Father; help me be a unifier and not a divider. In the mighty name of Jesus..."

Through this journey of mine, the most comforting thing I have been reminded of is this:
1.) God takes no pleasure in the final destruction of any (Ezekiel 18:23, 32 & 33:11)
2.) God finds pleasure in the salvation of every person who is saved (1 Tim 2:4)

So whoever is finally lost will not see God smiling as a result. Indeed, the Son of God says, there is celebration in heaven over every sinner who repents (Luke 15:7, 10)

I also find it comforting that every careful Calvinist will insist that God deserves no blame for the fate of the lost. Equally, every careful Arminian affirms that God deserves all the glory for the salvation of the redeemed.

Many, it seems, try and put this in a box by arguing that the converses of these Biblical truths are also truth, but we cannot say that. In this sense, I think it is very possible that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism has it quite right. It would seem, based on scripture, that just because God gets all the glory for those who come to know Him does not necessarily mean that He gets the opposite of glory for those who don't come to know Him. In other words, we cannot blame Him for the lost simply because He gets credit for the found. The Bible doesn't allow this, for it supports only what I mentioned--that God is not to blame for temptation or evil or the lost AND that He gets the credit for those who come to Him, as well as every other good and perfect thing.

You have every right to think this is contradictory in nature, but I remind you that God's Word does not contradict itself--and the Bible makes this idea plain: When you come to the gates of Heaven, it will say: "For all those who chose to believe, you may enter." Once on the inside, the backside of the gate will read: "You were chosen since before the foundations of the earth." That is perplexing indeed, but I tell you that God ceases to be God the moment this whole thing isn't perplexing! -

I suppose I just have a fear when it comes to handling situations. I don't want to be out there making false promises to people concerning matters of faith. I have always been taught to take a promise in the Bible, claim it for myself, and stand firmly on it. I have always been taught that such faith is always honored by our Father in Heaven--and many times it is. Yet such faith does not always bring about results--or at least the results we're hoping for/promised to others. So I don't know what to do with that. How tongue-in-cheek it is for me to stand before someone proclaiming that they can have something in accordance with God's Word when they might very-well not get it! I struggle with that as it relates to others I am responsible for.

I suppose it is fitting that I have these questions since I grew up in a Southern-Baptist church and then changed to a Word-of-Faith, charismatic environment where I have remained since. Thanks for all the input everyone! I look forward to much more.

Love in Christ,
Chris

[Pastor Wally]

I wrote out a lengthy reply but when I wanted to post it I must have clicked a wrong button and I lost the lot, 2 hours work, unable to get back to it.
However, I will try again tomorrow.

God bless,
Wally