The Elect and the Saved are Two Different Groups

[psalm109:31]

The Elect

Quote:Revelation 7
The Sealed of Israel
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, ?Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.? 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[In NU-Text and M-Text were sealed is stated only in verses 5a and 8c; the words are understood in the remainder of the passage. ]
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

The Saved

Quote:A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, ?Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!? 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


? Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.?

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ?Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from??
14 And I said to him, ?Sir,[ NU-Text and M-Text read My lord. ] you know.?
So he said to me, ?These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.[NU-Text and M-Text read to fountains of the waters of life.] And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.?

[Davo]

The book of Revelation is a symbloic book and you cannot take you examples as literal. On the first example there is a tribe of Mannash and a tribe of Joseph. Manneseh was part fo the tribe of Joseph, therefore there must be more in this list than meets the eye.

As many say the book is to be taken literally, I would refer you to Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The word 'signified' means more or less the same as 'symbolized'. One means shown by signs and the other by symbols.

[Agur]

The same word also means "to make known".

I believe that Revelation DOES use a lot of symbolism, but it interprets itself (as it does with the "candles", the "waters" the "harlot" etc.). Also, I believe that a lot of it is literal. I believe that the 144,000 is literaly 12,000 from those tribes...The fact that it mentions Joseph's, and one of his son's tribes poses no problem in my mind...although I do wonder where the tribe of Dan is at during all of this.

The 144,000 are mentioned later too...so we can see what the significance is of these 144,000 is compared to the other Israelites who will be saved at that time.

Howbeit I don't think I look at these groups the same as "psalm109:31". Not that that matters much, I guess.

[psalm109:31]

You know what it symbolizes.

THe workers(elect) our few, but the harvast is plenty. So lets pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out mor workers.

The truth of the matter is this. Jesus was not sent to condemn the world but to save it, and the elect our the messengers of that.

[Davo]

Ephraim isn't there either.

[Jim]

Thos 144,000 you read in Revelation 7 are the prophetic tribes who will exist in the New Jerusalem. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the "elect" in the New Testament. Thos 144,000, if you read closely, are on earth during the great tribulation. They will not bow down to the great image of the beast after their realization that he(the anti-christ) is not God as they were led to believe.

How you even came to the association of the elect to the sealed I cannot understand.

The verses of 1-8 specifically refer to 144,000 Jews out of the great tribulation.

Quote:an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (seed of Jacob).

The verses of 9-17 refer to Gentile nations who came to know Christ during the great tribulation.

Quote:After this I beheld,

John is either referring to "after this"(vision), or "after this"(the sealing of the 144,000). Either way, it is denoting two different things.

The elect are the saved in Jesus Christ of the New Testament church who will be raptured to be with Him always in Glory, before the tribulation.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Agur]

I know, but that can easily (should say "more" easily) be explained away by the fact that Joseph is there. You see, Biblicaly speaking USUALY a reference to the "children of Israel" is about Reuben,
Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Judah, and Benjamin. Whereas the tribes of Israel are USUALY about Reuben,
Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Ephraim, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Judah, and Benjamin. But this passage seems to be a "highbrid" of the two....minus Dan...I'm looking into it, but I am coming up empty at every turn.

Oh well, it IS nonessential!

[psalm109:31]

Salvation is a vision of a tree. You have the trunk as the Holy Spirit who holds everything together. You have the elect branches like the disciple's of Jesus. The branches are reaching out with the true vine Jesus, and the saved our it's fruit. The fruit is folding on to Jesus thier only hope.

The Father is the gardener taking care of it all.

I do not see how you all close a door that Jesus has opened for the world.

[Jim]

Quote:Salvation is a vision of a tree. You have the trunk as the Holy Spirit who holds everything together. You have the elect branches like the disciple's of Jesus. The branches are reaching out with the true vine Jesus, and the saved our it's fruit. The fruit is folding on to Jesus thier only hope.

Ummm, that analogy was used with John, and it was a vine, not a tree:

Quote:15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
15:9
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

You're picture of salvation using this analogy is a little off. The whole idea is behind Christ being glorified with the result of the fruit(salvation and obedience to His commandments). The analogy is that the husbandman(or caretaker, controller, gardener) oversees the whole vine. The branches, rooted in Christ must bring forth fruit(salvation and obedience) and that fruit being further shown by their glorification of, and purification in, Christ Jesus. It shows that all beings are created via the vine. If they bear no fruit they are cast into Hell. If they come to salvation and obey His commandments(bearing fruit) then they shall abide in His love.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[psalm109:31]

The fruit of the elected disciple's was to make disciple's of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The workers are so few, but the harvast is plenty, lets pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out more workers, who believe that Jesus was sent to save the world.

[Agur]

Sometimes random facts are good...sometimes they kill a converstion.

Words are just a means to trap for some people!

[psalm109:31]

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

[Chosen By Grace]

"John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

No, God's purpose was not to send Hid Son into the world to condemn anyone. His purpose was to glorify Himself through sending His Son to save those whom He has chosen, not so that they may receive glory for something they have accomplished in "choosing" Christ as their Savior, but so that they will be saved and He will receive all the glory.

In His Hands,
Matt