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Davo · Mon Feb 06, 2006 , 07:59 PM

Agur

I really cannot see how you can separate foreknowledge from predestination. If God foreknows something, it will happen, then it is predestined.

If I foreknow that something is going to happen, it may not. I may know that I am going to the fridge, to get something out, but it doesn't happen because when I get there, i have forgotten what I went for. That is how I see the difference. Don't forget that God said he would hold Cyrus' hand. Cyrus no doubt thought he was excercising his free will.

Mon Feb 06, 2006 , 08:08 PM

That's why I think this may be semantics. You see, what I'm saying is this, and this only...I can do what I want...Had I chosen to I could have been saved sooner than I was, but I chose not to (God knew this choice, but did not CAUSE this choice). I look at His ability to look ahead as I do my ability to look back (i.e. I KNOW that the "twin towers" were attacked on September 11 2001, but I did not cause it and I can not prevent it from having happened.)....Now don't get me wrong, God COULD change the future, by forcing me to do something against my WILL, but He chooses not to. Do you see what I mean--knowledge does not equal cause.

***Jim*** · Mon Feb 06, 2006 , 09:28 PM

Predestination is extremely difficult, not only to believe, but to even understand by most people.

Where in the bible does it say that any power, will, or anything for that matter, does not ultimately belong to God?

If this is so, why do we think we have anything to do with our salvation., which is provided via grace alone by our creator?

Why is it hard to believe that a creator has all power over the created?

Quote:While a spiritually dead man can't discern the things of the Spirit, he can hear the call to repentance.

Yes, if he even has the call. If a spiritually dead man is never called, then what is there to respond to?

Quote:Before I was saved I could hear, I could reason, and I bore the image of my Creator.

Hear physically, yes. Reason in your selfish, flesh-mind, yes. bear an image, yes. But, please, pray tell, what sin did to those things?

A man, who is dead in sin, cannot know the thigns of the Lord. Why?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

He cannot know them. It is plain and simple. If he cannot know them, then how is he saved? Is it anything of himself? No, it is only of the Lord.

These are just some short thoughts I had. I have some other things on my heart, but it's not the right time.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Mon Feb 06, 2006 , 10:55 PM

I don't think that anyone is saying that we are saved of (in and of) ourselves or anything to those lines. I just don't think that I had to accept that gift when given, and I believe that it was there for the taking long before I took it! That Grace you mention has appeared to all men...so why are some saved and others not???Choices...some choose to accept grace others refuse it...others still do despite grace (which only makes sense if one knows what true grace is).

Razorbuck · Tue Feb 07, 2006 , 11:26 AM

Hey Jim! Good to correspond with you once again!

Jim Wrote:Predestination is extremely difficult, not only to believe, but to even understand by most people.

I think I understand it well enough. I just don't happen to believe it is synonomous with "foreknowledge". Two different terms, two different meanings.

Jim Wrote:Where in the bible does it say that any power, will, or anything for that matter, does not ultimately belong to God?

Nowhere. But our sovereign LORD does have the power to empower. He can choose to give choices to His creation, and in fact has done so many times.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

and many others.

Jim Wrote:If this is so, why do we think we have anything to do with our salvation., which is provided via grace alone by our creator?

Of course, dear brother, you are correct. Salvation is provided by God's grace alone, but through what...?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is the gift? Salvation provided by God's amazing grace. But I must believe and repent.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Who can come?

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Jim Wrote:
Quote:While a spiritually dead man can't discern the things of the Spirit, he can hear the call to repentance.

Yes, if he even has the call. If a spiritually dead man is never called, then what is there to respond to?

Who is called?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jim Wrote:Hear physically, yes. Reason in your selfish, flesh-mind, yes. bear an image, yes. But, please, pray tell, what sin did to those things?

A man, who is dead in sin, cannot know the thigns of the Lord. Why?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

He cannot know them. It is plain and simple. If he cannot know them, then how is he saved? Is it anything of himself? No, it is only of the Lord.

Yes once again, beloved, it is of the LORD. But our gracious Father has given all men enough light to call upon His name.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Please know that I would never become contentious over this debate. This forum, and Raymond and yourself have been a mighty blessing to me.

your brother in Christ,

Razorbuck

prayer_revival · Thu Mar 02, 2006 , 10:07 AM

Quote:He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world ?1 John 2:2

Propitiation. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2. - Webster's 1828 dictionary

If we had no free choice to believe the free gift of salvation why the Lamb of God will be slained for the sins of the whole world?

Are not the benecfits of atonement offered to the whole world in the bible?

True God predistined us for salvation before the foundation of the world but where in the bible it says that he has elected the reprobate for damnation in hell before the biginning of the world?

***Jim*** · Mon Mar 06, 2006 , 01:54 PM

Quote:Nowhere. But our sovereign LORD does have the power to empower.

Yes, very true, very true.

Quote:Of course, dear brother, you are correct. Salvation is provided by God's grace alone, but through what...?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is the gift? Salvation provided by God's amazing grace. But I must believe and repent.

Thank you for that brother. I should have expounded myself a little. Faith is the requirement, and it is reflected, as you have pointed out, through belief and repentance.

We have to respond to that urging of the Father(John 6:44) with faith and repentance unto salvation.

Quote:Who is called?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This is something I really need to study brother. I tend to agree with you right now. However, let me put this to you. If what this says is true, and the translation of "all" refers to every human that has ever, and will ever walk the earth, then what of those who are created to do evil?

Proverbs 16:4
16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Do they have a chance for salvation? Or is it as its seems to say, "specifically created to do evil? Or is this evil temporal and have nothing to do with the salvation issue, but to complete something specific? That seems to make sense also.....

Hmmm.. always learning myself......good responses brother.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Pilgrim313 · Sat Apr 08, 2006 , 10:00 AM

Agur Wrote:If God has foreknowledge (as we all believe He does...I think), but does not actualy control us (but rather we control ourselves--as I believe...I can do what I want if I want)...He would still know ahead of time if His plan would work (i.e. if people would accept His Son), so He would know to move ahead with it...That's what's great about God, He know's what He know's without a doubt!! He created us, He understands us, and the fact is He favors us (that's how I feel)!!

The only problem with your statement is that you have elivated 'man' to have a free will.....Did we not 'accept' the Lord Jesus Christ as our LORD and Saviour? LORD being the supreme being and we being 'slaves' to Him? What happens to the many verses that state that God is in TOTAL control of ALL His creation?
Is.46:10 I make know the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand and I will do all that I please. (this 'I" is NOT man!)

Ps. 65:4 Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts! We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple
Prov. 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends...even the wicked for a day of disaster
16:9 In his heart a man PLANS his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
20:24A man's steps are directed by the LORD, How then can anyone understand his own way?
Job 14:5 Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.
Dan.4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
Phil.2:13 For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Ex.4:11Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I the LORD?

some of the best mind searching verses are from Job
40:2-8 Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!" Then Job answered the LORD: "I am unworthy-how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer--twice, but I will say no more." The the LORD spoke to Job out of the sotrm: "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"
Is.45:9-11 Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, "What are you making?" Does your work say, "He has no hands?" Woe to him who says to his father, " What have you begotten?" or to his mother, "What have you brought to birth?" This is what the LORD says - The Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?

We readily accept that God can (in our minds) control our destiny, limit our life span, and control the weather (although many curse him for storms ) but don't let God (god) mess with our free will. We really don't have a free will, except in the mind of those that hate God, for we are either in God's control or Satan's....there is no middle road, no fence sitting. There are only two types, those for Christ and those against. If you are for Him, He must control your thoughts, speaking etc...otherwise the Bible lies.
Pilgrim313

Pilgrim313 · Sat Apr 08, 2006 , 10:22 AM

Aughavey Wrote:"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him [God's sovereignty]: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" [Man's personal accountability] (Matt. 26:24).

I have a problem with this since Christ was able to state prior to the fact that Judas Iscariot would betray Christ. How then can this man have made a free will choice if Christ had fore knowledge of the mans actions to be?

Judas did in fact choose to betray Christ! But was it his free will? I do not believe it was, but rather God put it in his heart to do the Will of God, which was to feed his lust for money, betray Christ and yet fulfill the will of God, which actually pleased God. Try to understand that! I can't, but I truly believe it!
Pilgrim313

Pilgrim313 · Sat Apr 08, 2006 , 10:43 AM

Agur Wrote:That's why I think this may be semantics. You see, what I'm saying is this, and this only...I can do what I want...Had I chosen to I could have been saved sooner than I was, but I chose not to (God knew this choice, but did not CAUSE this choice). I look at His ability to look ahead as I do my ability to look back (i.e. I KNOW that the "twin towers" were attacked on September 11 2001, but I did not cause it and I can not prevent it from having happened.)....Now don't get me wrong, God COULD change the future, by forcing me to do something against my WILL, but He chooses not to. Do you see what I mean--knowledge does not equal cause.

That is the point you will come to realize (By God's Grace, hopefully). When God works in a person, by His Spirit, to do His Will, we do not know it has happened....it is like the wind, you feel it, but you don't know where it came from...yes, you may know it is coming out of the East, or South, but where does it originate? We have no idea. So it is with His Spirit. Using Judas as an example, Yes, he chose to betray Christ, but it was put in his heart, without his knowledge to do this. Just as with Pharoah, the Scripture plainly states, God hardened his heart, meaning God made him to act by not letting His people go, after God instructed him to let His people go.
Can I understand this? No, my puny pigmy human mind cannot fathom the depths of God's knowledge. It makes me very secure!.
Pilgrim313

Pastor Wally · Sun Apr 09, 2006 , 03:31 AM

Does it not say in the Bible that Satan entered the heart of Judas?
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
So the decision of Judas must have been influenced by Satan.

Pilgrim313 · Sun Apr 09, 2006 , 03:18 PM

Pastor Wally Wrote:Does it not say in the Bible that Satan entered the heart of Judas?
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
So the decision of Judas must have been influenced by Satan.

I think that is the point Pastor Wally, man is influenced by something, more than himself. We 'think' that we have free will to do as we please but the Scriptures state otherwise. We are either His, influenced by His Spirit, or Satan's and influenced by his minions. Regardless, man is 'not' free for his 'will' is always under some influence.
Pilgrim313