Purgatory

[Jim]

CCC; Part I; Section 2, Chapter 3; Article 12; III

Quote:THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

By their own admission:

Quote:The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Folks, this was only 460 years ago, it is so tragic that there were so many millions of souls waiting for so long in purgatory, for someone down here to all of a sudden to realize that they needed to pray for them so they could enter heaven.

Actually on a more serious note, I have seen absolutely no evidence that purgatory even exists. What I do believe, is that the catholic church has expounded so much on their own creation that it has caused them to create a catechism and three vatican councils to straighten out what makes no sense to common sense, or truth for that matter.

What better way to "fix" errors than to create councils for people to canonize even more things to clear up those "errors". the worst probably being the canonization of the apocrypha. I havn't seen as much myth, legend, wild imaginings, and tales in a fairy tale book as I have seen in the apocrypha.

Purgatory stems from 2 Maccabees, and Sirach. It is not biblical and has absolutely no basis for existence either.

Six reasons to reject the apocrypha:

Quote:1) Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2) Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3) These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4) They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5) They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6) It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection

7) It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination, and magical incantation

This is quoted from (McClure, Translators Revived, p. 185)

Please stick to purgatory here however, and we can open another topic on anoth thread for the Apocrypha.

Moving along....


Pope St. Gregory (d. 604) stated:

Quote:"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire."

St. Ambrose (d. 397) preached:

Quote:"We have loved them during life; let us not abandon them in death, until we have conducted them by our prayers into the house of the Lord."

Where are they getting this from in the Holy Bible?

There is only one verse that I know of in the New Testament in which the catholic church claims there is evidence of purgatory:

Matthew 12:32

Quote:
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Jesus Christ here was simply stressing the dangers of speaking against the Holy Ghost. Looking at the greek word for world in the ifrst part of the is (in this world), we see "aion" which means:

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

What more can we accept from this other than Jesus was speaking of one age of eternity in so many words? None. there is no other scripture to discount that He was referring to the one word of "aion", meaning "eternity".

[Jim]

bump

[DefensorFidei]

Quote:It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination, and magical incantation

I have done almost no studying of the Apocraphal books. Haven't any answers for you at this time, but I would like to have chapter and verse where the above immoral practices are taught.

Thank you.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

PS.....Just out of curiousity, is your last name DesRoches? Used to have quite lively conversations with a Jim DesRoches who also was a Fundamentalist.

[Jim]

Hehe, no that is not my last name.

Anyhow, I kind of figured the subject would try to be changed with that last point. so I will not answer this until this subject has been thoroughly addressed on purgatory.

[GoodSamaritan]

Quote:The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Can you please cite a source on this statement please?

[Jim]

[Jim]

From your own catholic encyclopedia!

Quote:I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Uni*n drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV)
defined:

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

[GoodSamaritan]

Quote:Folks, this was only 460 years ago, it is so tragic that there were so many millions of souls waiting for so long in purgatory, for someone down here to all of a sudden to realize that they needed to pray for them so they could enter heaven.

2 Maccabees shows that Jews considered praying for the dead long before 460 years ago. Ignoring the canonical nature of the book, you cannot deny the historicity of it. If prayer for the dead was instituted by the Jews (and judging from 2 Macc, it was a common practice), it's unlikely that Jesus would condemn this practice. And not a single word from Christ actually DOES condemn this practice. In Matthew 23, He condemned the Jews for a long list of changes in doctrine and discipline but does not mention this specific one--why not?

Quote:There is only one verse that I know of in the New Testament in which the catholic church claims there is evidence of purgatory:

Matthew 12:32

Actually, this is quite incorrect. I'll present 3 verses (since you seem to prefer verse slinging to dealing with what the Apostles actually taught in their journeys and to their successors), although many more exist and are foundational in the Church's doctrine of purgatory.

1 Cor. 3: 11-15: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

In other words, at the end, our works will be evaluated or put to the test for being godly and worthy of entering heaven. For those works which are deemed clean, reward will be given us in heaven. For those works which are not, however, we will suffer loss, compared to fire here, but will still emerge saved. This process of suffering loss is what we call Purgatory. It's the process of purifying ourselves through suffering (as this verse says), being made pure since the Bible also says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

1 Cor 15:29-30: Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? Why also are we in danger every hour?

This is not referring to a baptism ceremony of dead people--Paul was not a Mormon. It was likely referring to the practice which existed of people performing penitential works and prayers for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins. Clearly these dead cannot be in heaven since nobody is in need of these works and prayers in heaven. They can't be in Hell either since eternal Hell means no works or prayers can save anyone there. So there must be a third state in which these works and prayers will affect those in that state--we call that Purgatory now but the concept was in existence even as Paul wrote. Now compare these verses to the ones in 2 Maccabees which show specific prayers for the dead so that they can be loosed of their sins.

1 Peter 3:19: In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

Who were these spirits in prison? Certainly heaven is no prison so it can't be there. Christ did not go to preach to the damned so it can't be Hell. It points to a third place--where these spirits are being purified in anticipation of the beatific vision of Christ.

So there you have 3. There are many more but for purposes of refuting your statement of the Doctrine of Purgatory being derived from one lone verse of SCripture. If you'd like to talk about the merits of the actual verses, we can.

Question: What did the first Christians believe and teach about Purgatory? Did they expressly deny the existence of this state? Did they condemn praying for the dead? Maybe we should look at this to see how they interpreted these verses and the oral teachings they received from the Apostles. Writings existed as early as 60 AD that pointed to prayers for the dead being a Christian practice. There were inscriptions in the Catacombs that were prayers for the dead. This practice was a reality and it was because the belief of a third state, a state of purification in which those prayers (and works) could effect. God Bless.

p.s. If you want to post the Apocrypha arguments, we can discuss this as well.

[GoodSamaritan]

You clearly misunderstand the way Councils 'formulate' their Doctrines. They build upon previous Councils and teachings, they do not 'invent' revelation like those who conduct altar calls and practice sola scriptura. Just because the Doctrine was officially defined at Trent and Florence does not deny that it was firmly entrenched before then. Use common sense. If Early Church Fathers were writing about Purgatory before Trent and/or Florence (and we both know there are lots), then it's clear that the belief was already in existence in the Christian Church. In short, 'formulation' is not the same as 'invention'. Florence and Trent merely defined and reaffirmed what had existed in the Christian Church since its inception.

[Guest]

Heads up


http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewt...hp?t=43168

[Guest]

GoodSamaritan Wrote:You clearly misunderstand the way Councils 'formulate' their Doctrines. They build upon previous Councils and teachings, they do not 'invent' revelation like those who conduct altar calls and practice sola scriptura. Just because the Doctrine was officially defined at Trent and Florence does not deny that it was firmly entrenched before then. Use common sense. If Early Church Fathers were writing about Purgatory before Trent and/or Florence (and we both know there are lots), then it's clear that the belief was already in existence in the Christian Church. In short, 'formulation' is not the same as 'invention'. Florence and Trent merely defined and reaffirmed what had existed in the Christian Church since its inception.

Oh my! You cannot interpret scripture and now you cannot interpret the interpretation of the early church fathers.... oh my!

[GoodSamaritan]

Anonymous Wrote:

GoodSamaritan Wrote:You clearly misunderstand the way Councils 'formulate' their Doctrines. They build upon previous Councils and teachings, they do not 'invent' revelation like those who conduct altar calls and practice sola scriptura. Just because the Doctrine was officially defined at Trent and Florence does not deny that it was firmly entrenched before then. Use common sense. If Early Church Fathers were writing about Purgatory before Trent and/or Florence (and we both know there are lots), then it's clear that the belief was already in existence in the Christian Church. In short, 'formulation' is not the same as 'invention'. Florence and Trent merely defined and reaffirmed what had existed in the Christian Church since its inception.

Oh my! You cannot interpret scripture and now you cannot interpret the interpretation of the early church fathers.... oh my!

I see you chose to ignore the point and merely submit an ambiguous (and faulty) answer. Surely you can provide EVIDENCE of these Early Church Fathers outright denying the doctrine of Purgatory, no? I'd settle for proof that no Early Church Father wrote about this concept/doctrine before Trent or Florence.

[GoodSamaritan]

Anonymous Wrote:Heads up


http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewt...hp?t=43168

Not sure what you're getting at...

[DefensorFidei]

Heads up as in "here's the answers in this thread --IF -- you really want answers."

Brother Ed

[GoodSamaritan]

I'd prefer an answer to my specific post. Purgatory should be a simple doctrine to grasp from Scripture alone but when you consider what the Apostles and their successors believed and taught, it becomes even more so. It does not contradict a single tenet of the fundamental Christian doctrines of the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, Christ's blood atonement for sins, the inerrancy of Scripture, or the Second Coming of Christ.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 possesses all the elements of the Catholic teaching on Purgatory. First, the verse makes it clear that this process described takes place after death. Second, Paul uses flammable materialsl like hay, wood, and straw to represent our works which are unworthy of heaven and, conversely, uses materials that are purified by fire like gold, silver, and stones, to represent our works which put is in friendship with God. Third, this verse makes it clear that this process is uncomfortable. By using the phrase 'suffer loss' we can see that this process hurts but the next phrase used by Paul here, 'He himself will be saved' shows that this process is temporary but before we enter heaven.

Catholic teaching on Purgatory does not change what Paul (and the Jews before him) taught. Purgatory, when misunderstood, is reported to be a 'second chance' or where souls earn their way to heaven. It never has been and never will be this. Instead, it is a biblical teaching that provides us an example of God's infinite mercy. If there were only heaven or hell and we died in sin, we would be headed for Hell since nothing unclean can enter heaven. This third state enables God to transform us into, as Hebrews calls those who go to heaven, 'spirits of the just MADE perfect'.

Jim, if you'd like to PM about this topic (in order to remain firmly on-topic without fear of thread hijack), I'll do my best to present the Catholic position clearly so that misconceptions about it are avoided. God Bless.

Ron