The Popes Throne

[Jim]

What is this?:



Is this the throne of the pope? Why is there an upside down cross on it?

Will it be told that since the pope is an "apostolic successor", he takes on the same humble persecution as Peter did?

I see no persecution of any "pope". On the contrary, I have seen evidence thast some popes were assasinated by their own people and such. I doubt this was martyrdom.

However, there is another instance of the catholic church executing and/or torturing it's victims (see Jacob Primmer) in the exact same manner as Peter was.

So how can anyone claim persecution as Peter? Are we supposed to try and be persecuted? I don't think so.

If we live a Godly life we cannot avoid it(persecution), but we are not to seek it.

Where does it say that the pope, or even any apostle for that matter, has a throne higher than others? Where is it that he is to be "placed" higher than any other?

Why does he even need a throne?

You know what is ironic about that? What was Jesus' deameanor?:

Quote:Matt. 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Quote:Philipp. 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Jesus Himself was made meek and lowly in heart. What more should we be for an example?

Is humility sitting on a throne higher than all others, surrounded by gold and tapestries, in silk robes custom made worth thousands of dollars?

Is this a representation of a christ-like person?

When are we going to get some answers on these specifics from our catholic friends about their specific beliefs? Why are they sticking to arguing biblical details on the other threads?

[Agent_Smith]

Just as a preface, I want you to know that my post on apostolic succession was 6 pages in microsoft word and took me several hours to write it out and post it thoughtfully. I am not a robot.

You will get discussion in due time. When I have time I will answer questions as I can. But, I am only one man. It is easier to ask questions than to type deep theological answers.

Just be patient, brother in Christ. I will respond in kind when I have time.

Remember, Catholicism is like steps. The top steps are easier to understand when you first learn about the bottom steps.

Peace to you.

[CJEN]

The chair is known as the Chair of St. Peter. It is adorned with an inverted cross because that is how St. Peter died. And as St. Peter was the first Pope, it pays homage to the apostolic succession which began with him.

[Jim]

Kind of like what I said huh:

Quote:Will it be told that since the pope is an "apostolic successor", he takes on the same humble persecution as Peter did?

Is that also why the catholic church also tortured many of their victims in the same way during the inquisition?

[Jim]

And why does he sit so high up in that chair?

[CJEN]

Jim Wrote:Kind of like what I said huh:

Quote:Will it be told that since the pope is an "apostolic successor", he takes on the same humble persecution as Peter did?

That's not at all what I said. I merely pointed out what the chair is named and why it is named that.

[CJEN]

Jim Wrote:And why does he sit so high up in that chair?

Why does any speaker stand on stage higher than the audience? It has nothing to do with the Pope believing that he is somehow better than everyone else. Men do not become Pope for their own honor, but rather to honor God and humbly serve Him as best they can.

I for one would NEVER want to be Pope. I would not want the responsbility that comes along with it. If, however, I were ever elected Pope (which would never happen) I would pray that God would guide me as I am sure that He has guided all the other Popes in the past.

[Jim]

Quote:Why does any speaker stand on stage higher than the audience?

Oh, so he doesn't have one in the conclave, or in the papal chambers or anywhere else, just during public audiences? Why does he need to be seen at all? I thought it was his words Ex Cathedra that were important and infallible, not his looks.

Quote:It has nothing to do with the Pope believing that he is somehow better than everyone else.

A Boston College Homily reenforces this statement:

Quote:On Pope John XXIII:
How does one keep a head when it wears a crown? Meaning the papal crown? Yes, it is still in use for the coronation, and only put aside forever by Paul VI, his successor. But John kept a basic humility while submitting to the protocol and elaborate ritual (which in fact he liked). Typical of his attitude was his reply to a letter he received from an eleven-year-old boy named Bruno. Bruno's letter said, "Dear Pope, I can't decide whether to become a pope or a fireman. What do you think?" And John replied, "Dear Bruno, be a fireman. Anyone can become pope. Look at me."

Definitely a humble humorous statement. What better way to defend any pope's succession than to claim the infallibility of the previous ones' ability to choose(Or the conclave in most instances).

Quote:Men do not become Pope for their own honor

How do you know? Only God knows the hearts of men. What if the successor who is chosen has a problem with this? Kind of like Pius XII, who apparently was rather narcissistic, or Ratzinger, Benedict XVI, who loves his prada shoes and silk robes and custom sunglasses?

If you don't call silk robes, luxurious chambers, travelling in a Mercedes Benz, sitting on a gigantic chair, wearing custom clothing, surrounded by gold and jewels, in the most comfortable arrangements in the world not doing something "for their own honor", what would you call it?

[Jim]

bump

[CJEN]

Jim Wrote:

Quote:Why does any speaker stand on stage higher than the audience?

Oh, so he doesn't have one in the conclave, or in the papal chambers or anywhere else, just during public audiences? Why does he need to be seen at all? I thought it was his words Ex Cathedra that were important and infallible, not his looks.

What does this have to do with anything anyway? Who cares if he is elevated so that the audience can see him? Why does it matter?

Jim Wrote:

CJEN Wrote:It has nothing to do with the Pope believing that he is somehow better than everyone else.

A Boston College Homily reenforces this statement:

Quote:On Pope John XXIII:
How does one keep a head when it wears a crown? Meaning the papal crown? Yes, it is still in use for the coronation, and only put aside forever by Paul VI, his successor. But John kept a basic humility while submitting to the protocol and elaborate ritual (which in fact he liked). Typical of his attitude was his reply to a letter he received from an eleven-year-old boy named Bruno. Bruno's letter said, "Dear Pope, I can't decide whether to become a pope or a fireman. What do you think?" And John replied, "Dear Bruno, be a fireman. Anyone can become pope. Look at me."

Definitely a humble humorous statement. What better way to defend any pope's succession than to claim the infallibility of the previous ones' ability to choose(Or the conclave in most instances).

What was wrong with what the Pope told Bruno? He was demonstrating his humility. What is the error in that?

Jim Wrote:

CJEN Wrote:Men do not become Pope for their own honor

How do you know? Only God knows the hearts of men. What if the successor who is chosen has a problem with this? Kind of like Pius XII, who apparently was rather narcissistic, or Ratzinger, Benedict XVI, who loves his prada shoes and silk robes and custom sunglasses?

If you don't call silk robes, luxurious chambers, travelling in a Mercedes Benz, sitting on a gigantic chair, wearing custom clothing, surrounded by gold and jewels, in the most comfortable arrangements in the world not doing something "for their own honor", what would you call it?

What about Protestant ministers that make 6 figure incomes? None of this matters. The point is that men who become Pope do so because they want to serve God. Even if a man becomes Pope out of vanity, the Holy Spirit will protect the Church from error by not allowing him to speak inaccurately ex cathedra.

[CJEN]

I believe a lot of Protestants continually confuse infallability with impecability.

Infallability means that the Pope can not err when speaking ex cathedra. And this is not of his own doing. It is the Holy Spirit that protects him from error. So, the glory and honor for infallability rests with God.

Impecability would mean the Pope is perfect in every aspect of his life. We all know this is not true as the Pope is a sinner just like the rest of us.

[Jim]

Quote:What does this have to do with anything anyway? Who cares if he is elevated so that the audience can see him? Why does it matter?

You are not seeing the issue. Every where the pope goes, everything he does, he is always elevated above everyone else. It has nothing to do with "seeing" him or "hearing" him. Being that when he speaks "Ex Cathedra" I would think you all would put more focus on his words than his physical presence anyway.

Let's just say that history again is against you. There are thousands who try to "touch" the pope everywhere he goes so that they might receive some "blessing". To my knowledge, I have never seen the pope scold someone for doing such, on the contrary, he always looks as if he encourages it.

The pope is elevated because his followers place great station upon him and believe he is holy.

Quote:What was wrong with what the Pope told Bruno? He was demonstrating his humility. What is the error in that?

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what the pope told him. He explained his position well. In other words: The position of the pope holds no value, no special abilites, and certainly no holiness and no authority other than what common man gives it.

Quote:What about Protestant ministers that make 6 figure incomes?

They are in the same boat as the pope in my opinion.

Quote:Even if a man becomes Pope out of vanity, the Holy Spirit will protect the Church from error by not allowing him to speak inaccurately ex cathedra.

Show me the basis for "Ex Cathedra".

I will say this: Since you believe that what the "pope" says is "infallible", then please explain what Peter(your claimed first pope) says here, and then Jesus' response:

Quote:Matthew
16:22
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

So much for "Ex Cathedra" huh?

[NCUNIT33]

Just look back a few hundred years to some of the ungodly acts the pope's commanded, like the burning at the stake, the boiling in hot oil etc. ref. Foxe book of martyrs......Sounds like he wasn't infallible, or impecable? Maybe they have been influenced by a spirit...
I John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Just not the Spirit of God!




Jim Norman