Immaculate Conception

[Jim]

CCC; Article 9; Paragraph 6; I; 966

Quote:"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

What say you to this?

First, Mary was a human being just like everyone else, no better, no worse, She sinned just like everyone else who is born into the sin-flesh.

Second:


Catholic Catechism:

Quote:and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death

Holy Bible:

Quote:Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I was accused on another thread of being blasphemous. Who is really being blasphemous here?

[mnwickens]

The Bible is clear on salvation and many issues where Roman Catholicism and other religions err. The major problem comes down to whether or not the Bible or tradition is exalted.

Recently I saw a clip from a film about Jesus and Mary is depicted as COMMANDING Jesus to turn the water into wine at Cana. (btw, all movies about Jesus should be avoided.) Tradition will always appeal to our sinful natures as tradition teaches there is something we can do for ourselves.

MNW

[Jim]

Oh and just to clarify who brought sin into the world:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It did not say that by one woman, therefore it can be concluded that sin is passed from the male lineage, not the woman's. Mary was born from a man, Jesus was not.

Quote:
1 Kings 15:3
And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

Quote:Job 14:1
Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
14:2
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
14:3
And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
14:4
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

This reference to is to any man born from a human father. Job was lamenting his life in his despair and the life of anyone of a fleshly mother and father and their sin.

For the sin of blood passed from generation to generation to be broken, Jesus could not have been born from man's seed, but by the seed of the Holy Spirit, which has no sin.

Think of the woman's womb in this way. It is simply a fertile bed in which to make a seed grow. If you have an oak seed, will it still be an oak if grown in clay? in manure? it soot ash? In fertile ground or dry? Yes, it still will be an oak, no matter where it is grown. Why? because it is a seed by an oak tree, not any other tree.

[Jim]

bump

[DefensorFidei]

Let's try this on for size and then discuss it:

Quote:If God restored Adam, then in order to fully restore that which He created in the Garden, He must restore Eve also. To leave Eve out of the equation would be to leave the redemptive work of Christ incomplete. Certainly the Early Church Fathers understood this, for they referred to the Blessed Virgin as ?the new Eve?. Let us see if we can draw some type / antetype parallels between these two women.

Eve was created by the work of God in splitting open Adam?s side. The Blessed Virgin was created in the same way, by the splitting open of Christ?s side in the redemptive work of God which was, according to Scripture, planned before the foundation of the world. Without the death of Christ for sin, the Blood of Christ could not have been applied to Mary for her original sin at the time of her conception to make her created in the exact same way that Eve was, innocent and sinless.

Without this Immaculate Conception, the whole type / antetype parallelism falls apart and we have no restoration of that which God created in the Garden. The redemptive work of Christ fails.

Eve was to be the helpmeet to Adam, bearing his covenantal authority and rulership in equality over the creation he was to rule over. Both were to bear that authority not of themselves, but from God. It was not intrinsic to themselves, but came from God. In like manner, the Blessed Virgin, as the new Eve to the Last Adam, is the helpmeet. She bears rulership with Him, not of herself intrinsically, but of God, in the same way that Adam and Eve would have borne the authority of God had they not fallen. When titles such as ?intercessor? ?mediator? and other such, which drive Protestants just wild, are given to her, they are given because she, as helpmeet, equally bears that authority that her HUMAN SON has been given in Heaven as the Last Adam.

Remember, it is JESUS who is in Heaven. That is His HUMAN name. It is a MAN who rules in Heaven. Yes, a special man who is, in a mystery both human and divine, two natures not co-mingled, yet existing in one person ? a man. A man and a woman ? a human king and queen in Heaven ruling as the covenantal headship of the family.

This was exactly what God had planned for Adam and Eve and exactly what He restored in Jesus and the Virgin Mary ? kingship and queenship over the created world.

Not only are the king and queen redeemed, but the father and mother of us all once again watch over us. This is another of those lost titles which Adam and Eve forfeited by the Fall. Think of it this way. Suppose the Fall had not happened. It is conceivable that Adam and Eve would be yet living today in their glorified state similar to what we saw in the Transfiguration. They would have grown in righteousness and holiness to such a degree that they would be able to hear and answer the thoughts and requests of all their children on earth from where ever on earth they would be.

I say this because Christ had this ability on earth:

Mt 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Lu 6:8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

Remember, our Lord Jesus is the Last Adam. This indicates that all that He has as a fully developed man, Adam would have had. Eve would have shared in this with Adam as his helpmeet. And all of their children would have also grown into this (provided they did not sin away their opportunity). Ultimately, as believers, this what we look forward to as gods/children of the King.

From where ever we would be on the planet, we could think our requests to them. And as our father and mother, the covenantal headship of the earthly family, they would be worthy of praise. In fact, we would be expected to give it to them:

Ex 20:12 ? Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

This is not a stretch. Look how the Bible treats those who are in the lineage of our birth:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham is their father, for it was from his seed that the entire lineage of the Jews sprang forth. How much more then, for the Christian, should he refer to God as His Father, and the Virgin Mary AS HIS MOTHER, for without the grace of God and the willingness of the Blessed Virgin to submit to God?s will, we would still be in our sins. Just as Eve was so named for being ?the mother of all living?, so now is the Theotokos the Mother of all who are truly alive, being in Christ and sharing in His divine life. This is why we treat her with respect and give her our supplications. She is the New Eve indeed and as one who was, by a special work of divine grace, kept sinless all her days on earth, she is a worthy helpmeet to her Son as the Queen of the heavenly kingdom. If the first Eve was still on earth in a glorified state, we would do no sin to honor her or to take our requests to her. If the first Adam was still on earth in his glorified state, it would be no sin to ask favor of him and to glorify Him also. And since they have been redeemed in Jesus and Mary, they who were both created by divine fiat without sin for the purpose of picking up where the first Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, we may treat them as we would had sin never derailed the plan of God.

This understanding of the plan of God in the Garden Covenant for His family makes the honor we bestow upon the Blessed Virgin to be a simple continuation of that which was interrupted in the Garden. By her obedience to God, the Virgin Mary receives that which Eve forfeited. The honor of her children, which would have been all of mankind, the blessings of obedience, which is her reign in Heaven, and the sharing of the authority given to Adam, reigning and ruling with Him in perfect unity of will, all belong to the Blessed Virgin. In this lavish praise, let me remind you once again that just as Adam and Eve would have had perfect unity of will in the Garden, so does the Blessed Virgin do nothing but the divine will of Her Son, Who, in turn, said of Himself as a human being ? Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. When Jesus thus spoke, saying that He could do nothing of Himself, He was speaking as the perfect MAN. Remember to separate the Son of Man (human) in Jesus from the Son of God (divine). Two natures in one person. Therefore, we know that as a perfect and sinless human being, the replacement for Eve, the Blessed Virgin acts only in obedience to and conformity with the divine will of God.

I hope my Protestant friends can leave their fears about ?idol worship? and ?Mary as another god? and see this for what it is. Adam and Eve. Jesus and Mary. We are honoring our mother and father of the New Covenant

Do you understand the concept here? The Blessed Virgin is the New Eve. She is what Eve was destined to be -- The Queen of the Human Race. And when She prays, because of Her Sinless Conception, Her will is PERFECTLY attuned to God so that Her prayers are ONLY THE WILL OF GOD. You and I pray imperfectly for many things that are not God's will because of our sin state we are still in (the old man).

Thus you can say that if Mary prays for our salvation, we will be saved, because She is praying 100% in the will of God.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[Guest]

The idea that we need a representative Eve for the new covenant I can not see in Scripture. I will share a few Scriptures and then give my understanding of them:

Quote:Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Quote:1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Quote:Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The God given order for Creation is Christ - Man - Woman. In the case of man and woman it is not a matter of importance, value or ability but simply the God given order. The man's responsibility for the woman is to love and cherish her as Christ does the church.

But my main point is that Adam, as the representative head of all men and women is the one that failed. You will notice that in Genesis it was Adam's sin that brought the curse to the earth. When GOd came to the garden in previous verses he called for Adam, not Adam and Eve, but Adam.

I Corinthians 15:22 clearly states that it was Adam's sin that brought death upon all.

The idea that Eve must be replaced by Mary is not in the Scripture.

Further, Adam and Eve were never called a King and Queen. It would have been a theocracy as in the days of the Judges. Representative heads were on the Earth but God alone could and should be King.

MNW

[DefensorFidei]

Quote:The idea that we need a representative Eve for the new covenant I can not see in Scripture.

That is -- again -- because you have a one dimensional way of reading the Holy Scriptures, i.e., you want it spelled out in black and white. That is but one of several ways that the Holy Scriptures speak to us. As I showed you in the above post, it is taught in principle, not in clarity. You have to understand the covenantal relationship of God to man and understand the nature of the Creation to understand why this is necessary.

I will share a few Scriptures and then give my understanding of them:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Yes, this is the covenantal format of relationship as pictured by marriage. Scripture also says "the two become 'one flesh'. There is a uni*n which you have to deal with in a husband/wife relationship. You have to understand the hierarchial structure of family. All these are things that you have not even considered yet.

But my main point is that Adam, as the representative head of all men and women is the one that failed.

Certainly. No argument there.

You will notice that in Genesis it was Adam's sin that brought the curse to the earth. When GOd came to the garden in previous verses he called for Adam, not Adam and Eve, but Adam.

That does not take away from the covenantal relationship and uni*n that they had. Let's look at something:

Quote:Luke 3: 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Have you ever thought what it means that Adam was given the title "the son of God?" If you had mentioned "the son of God" to me 10 years ago, I would have thought you were talking about the Lord Jesus Christ. But in Holy Scripture, Adam is addressed as the Son of God.

What then does that make him? Since God is King over all Creation, then what is the son of a king? He is prince Adam. He is created as a son in innocency and yet is given authority over creation. Don't you ever ask yourself what that means? It means that he was sharing in the divine nature of his Father and he was in training to become a king. Had Adam not sinned, he would have been everything that Jesus was (except divine, of course!). In Jesus, we see a man who attained to all that Adam could have had.

And in similar manner, we see Eve as the princess of the Garden who will someday be queen. She is un*ited to Adam and they are CO-REGENT over the earth. Even though Adam was the federal head of the earth, if Eve spoke in authority, she would have been speaking out of Adam's authority and her uni*n to him. This is basic covenantalism 101.

When the Fall took place, all this was lost. The human male -- Adam -- lost his federal headship over the Creation and also fell into discord with his mate -- Eve. The regeneration of mankind is nothing less than the restoration of the Garden Plan which was lost in the Fall. God will have a man to be King over the Creation. And God will redeem ALL that was lost, not just a part of it. The Man Who is to be King MUST have a Queen. That was in the original plan and God will not leave that destroyed and unredeemed.

The idea that Eve must be replaced by Mary is not in the Scripture.

Just showed it to you. You have to STUDY the types, the purposes, the intents, and the language of Holy Scripture, not just look for some verse which says things point blank. Not all scripure is that perspicuous.

Further, Adam and Eve were never called a King and Queen.

Yeah, they never made it, did they? The Fall interrupted their coronation, which was God's plan. So He redeemed that Garden Plan through the MAN -- Jesus the Christ -- and through the one who was also created without sin thanks to the pre-incarnation application of Christ's Blood for her sins.

It would have been a theocracy as in the days of the Judges.

Jesus never spoke about the "democracy of God," did He? He always spoke of WHAT?

The KINGDOM.

That is God's way. A theocratic kingdom in which all in it are ruled by the application of God's Law. Democracies are from the pit of hell. Our Lord came to establish His Kingdom, not some democracy.

And....one day....the MAN who is King of Creation, the Lord Jesus Christ, shall return as the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) and bring with Him the Queen of Heaven and Earth and they shall reign together, along with US!!
Yes, we, too, as believers will be given authority. I remember hearing that as a Fundamentalist. Why is it so hard to believe that the first one to receive the grace of God through the Crucifixion would not also receive authority from God through Her Son?

Representative heads were on the Earth but God alone could and should be King.

Hmmmmmmm.....yes. The covenantal concept of political covenant and "greater and lesser vassal kings". Don' t think I disagree with that, seeing as how kingdoms were set up in the OT as a paradigm of the heavenly kingdom. Any kingship here on earth would be subject to the greater King Who is Lord over all.

Brother Ed

[Jim]

Quote:?If God restored Adam, then in order to fully restore that which He created in the Garden, He must restore Eve also. To leave Eve out of the equation would be to leave the redemptive work of Christ incomplete. Certainly the Early Church Fathers understood this, for they referred to the Blessed Virgin as ?the new Eve?. Let us see if we can draw some type / antetype parallels between these two women.

Eve was created by the work of God in splitting open Adam?s side. The Blessed Virgin was created in the same way, by the splitting open of Christ?s side in the redemptive work of God which was, according to Scripture, planned before the foundation of the world. Without the death of Christ for sin, the Blood of Christ could not have been applied to Mary for her original sin at the time of her conception to make her created in the exact same way that Eve was, innocent and sinless.

Without this Immaculate Conception, the whole type / antetype parallelism falls apart and we have no restoration of that which God created in the Garden. The redemptive work of Christ fails.

Eve was to be the helpmeet to Adam, bearing his covenantal authority and rulership in equality over the creation he was to rule over. Both were to bear that authority not of themselves, but from God. It was not intrinsic to themselves, but came from God. In like manner, the Blessed Virgin, as the new Eve to the Last Adam, is the helpmeet. She bears rulership with Him, not of herself intrinsically, but of God, in the same way that Adam and Eve would have borne the authority of God had they not fallen. When titles such as ?intercessor? ?mediator? and other such, which drive Protestants just wild, are given to her, they are given because she, as helpmeet, equally bears that authority that her HUMAN SON has been given in Heaven as the Last Adam.

Remember, it is JESUS who is in Heaven. That is His HUMAN name. It is a MAN who rules in Heaven. Yes, a special man who is, in a mystery both human and divine, two natures not co-mingled, yet existing in one person ? a man. A man and a woman ? a human king and queen in Heaven ruling as the covenantal headship of the family.

This was exactly what God had planned for Adam and Eve and exactly what He restored in Jesus and the Virgin Mary ? kingship and queenship over the created world.

Not only are the king and queen redeemed, but the father and mother of us all once again watch over us. This is another of those lost titles which Adam and Eve forfeited by the Fall. Think of it this way. Suppose the Fall had not happened. It is conceivable that Adam and Eve would be yet living today in their glorified state similar to what we saw in the Transfiguration. They would have grown in righteousness and holiness to such a degree that they would be able to hear and answer the thoughts and requests of all their children on earth from where ever on earth they would be.

I say this because Christ had this ability on earth:

Mt 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Lu 6:8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

Remember, our Lord Jesus is the Last Adam. This indicates that all that He has as a fully developed man, Adam would have had. Eve would have shared in this with Adam as his helpmeet. And all of their children would have also grown into this (provided they did not sin away their opportunity). Ultimately, as believers, this what we look forward to as gods/children of the King.

From where ever we would be on the planet, we could think our requests to them. And as our father and mother, the covenantal headship of the earthly family, they would be worthy of praise. In fact, we would be expected to give it to them:

Ex 20:12 ? Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

This is not a stretch. Look how the Bible treats those who are in the lineage of our birth:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham is their father, for it was from his seed that the entire lineage of the Jews sprang forth. How much more then, for the Christian, should he refer to God as His Father, and the Virgin Mary AS HIS MOTHER, for without the grace of God and the willingness of the Blessed Virgin to submit to God?s will, we would still be in our sins. Just as Eve was so named for being ?the mother of all living?, so now is the Theotokos the Mother of all who are truly alive, being in Christ and sharing in His divine life. This is why we treat her with respect and give her our supplications. She is the New Eve indeed and as one who was, by a special work of divine grace, kept sinless all her days on earth, she is a worthy helpmeet to her Son as the Queen of the heavenly kingdom. If the first Eve was still on earth in a glorified state, we would do no sin to honor her or to take our requests to her. If the first Adam was still on earth in his glorified state, it would be no sin to ask favor of him and to glorify Him also. And since they have been redeemed in Jesus and Mary, they who were both created by divine fiat without sin for the purpose of picking up where the first Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, we may treat them as we would had sin never derailed the plan of God.

This understanding of the plan of God in the Garden Covenant for His family makes the honor we bestow upon the Blessed Virgin to be a simple continuation of that which was interrupted in the Garden. By her obedience to God, the Virgin Mary receives that which Eve forfeited. The honor of her children, which would have been all of mankind, the blessings of obedience, which is her reign in Heaven, and the sharing of the authority given to Adam, reigning and ruling with Him in perfect unity of will, all belong to the Blessed Virgin. In this lavish praise, let me remind you once again that just as Adam and Eve would have had perfect unity of will in the Garden, so does the Blessed Virgin do nothing but the divine will of Her Son, Who, in turn, said of Himself as a human being ? Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. When Jesus thus spoke, saying that He could do nothing of Himself, He was speaking as the perfect MAN. Remember to separate the Son of Man (human) in Jesus from the Son of God (divine). Two natures in one person. Therefore, we know that as a perfect and sinless human being, the replacement for Eve, the Blessed Virgin acts only in obedience to and conformity with the divine will of God.

I hope my Protestant friends can leave their fears about ?idol worship? and ?Mary as another god? and see this for what it is. Adam and Eve. Jesus and Mary. We are honoring our mother and father of the New Covenant

I have never in my life heard so much inane babble. This doesn't even constitute anything cognizant. I also have never heard anything so blasphemous. This doesn't even dignify a response so I will not even give one. Obviously there is no ground we can agree on here.


Jim

[NCUNIT33]

No scripture gives us any indication that Mary should be lifted up to a place of worship as Christ.

Acts 4:12 clears this all up!

In John 19:26 the term woman, behold thy son!
puts all this in true light, she was just a woman, yes, bless to give birth to the Savour, but a woman in need of his saving grace like any other woman. Jesus never said from the cross..Hey, you guys better start lifting her up!!!!!

The following quote below is from the page link below.

Quote:One of the most blatant displays of the practice of Babylonian paganism is the manner in which the Roman Catholic church permits the worship of the pagan mother goddess under the name of Jesus' mother Mary.

This link is very helpful

http://bupc.montana.com/whores/marywors.html

Just a form of paganism.....Remember what Maze Jackson said, Religion will keep you out of jail, but salvation will keep you out of hell!

Jim Norman

[Davo]

If Mary were immaculate, why would she require a saviour?

Luke 1: 47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." said Mary.

[Jim]

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell doesnt it?

[ChiFaithful]

Thanks for the thread. I appreciate everyone's reasoning.

Just to clarify for those who are confused: Catholics do not believe that they are saved through Mary. Catholics believe that Mary has a special relationship with Jesus as she was his mother. As you can read above in the Catechism, Mary's prayers are used as she is praying to Jesus for His grace. All of this is noted in the Hail Mary, which is specifically taken from Scripture. Through his grace, we may be saved. Any help in that is certainly worthwhile, huh?

Also, although Catholic's believe that Mary was born and lived without sin, she is still human and would need to be accepted to heaven by God himself. I really don't understand the problem there, or what the last comment was supposed to prove.

However, I do have a question for you that is on topic. Could you please explain to me the disbelief in the Immaculate Conception and the belief in the Trinity?

Thanks again. Peace be with everyone.

[Jim]

We have already shown and stated that in the Catholic Catechism, "Immaculate Conception" states that Mary is born without original sin. This is disproven by Romans 3:23.

There are many locations which support the trinity. The best being 1 John 5:7.

This is very understood to people who truly study God's Word to themselves approved unto Him.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Robert Mazar]

ChiFaithful,

The Holy Bible states that there is only one mediator between God and Man and that is Jesus and thus the Virgin Mary and the Saints can not be mediators between God and Man.

[Robert Mazar]

The Virgin Mary was not conceived without original sin because the Bible states that only Christ was conceived without original sin.