Gospel or Curse? Which do you have?

[Raymond]

Ed, I didnt promise any theological fireworks. Sorry you werent happy with my response. Look I have been real busy lately and havnt been able to post here much. I have not had time to read any recent responses so until I do I wont respond to any questions.

As for my comment about cutting and pasting, one of you was putting (newadvent.org) at the end of a couple of paragraphs. If you didnt cut and paste dont get your feelings hurt, I just assumed you did. Cutting and pasting isnt a bad thing really, I do it all the time.

Also it appears that you guys like to type a whole lot more than me, so if my replies arent a mile long please dont be dissapointed.

But you seem to have this long complicted position to try and confuse the issue.

Mine is simple.

Quote:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Call me crazy but I think that scripture asks a simple question. Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

Your answer seems to be yes.
Paul says thats not the case.

I wanted to keep the post a bit more narrow in topic. Thats why I asked you what are you trusting in to take you to heaven?

If you have answered me in a response forgive me I havnt had time to read it yet. I will get to it.

Also I think I am going to create a new forum to post these topics under so keep an eye out for it.

I have had a long day. I will post when I get time.

Take care. Ray

The Apostle Paul sent a tear-stained letter to the Philippian saints, writing: "I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil. 3:1. Notice that he does not say they are enemies of Christ; they are, rather, the enemies of the cross of Christ. They deny or diminish the redemptive values of the cross. There are many like this today. The church of Rome does not stand as an enemy of Christ; it traces heavily on His holy name. Yet it denies the cross by saying that the Blessed Virgin is co-redemptive. If this is so, why was she not also crucified? The Mormons use the name of Christ, yet they are astray on the atonement. Have we tears for them? Shall we face them without a blush when they accuse us of inertia at the Judgment Seat saying that they were our neighbors and an offense to us, but not a burden because they were lost? ..... Leonard Ravenhill

(yes I cut and pasted)

[Agent_Smith]

I cut and pasted to not take credit for someone else's work. That's why. I thought it was helpful to the discussion and didn't want it to seem like I personally wrote it.

[DefensorFidei]

Hello Ray and Jim --

Just a note to thank you for the more irenic tone of our conversations, despite the sharp difference in how we approach the Holy Scriptures. It is deeply appreciated.

Quote:Ed, I didnt promise any theological fireworks. Sorry you werent happy with my response. Look I have been real busy lately and havnt been able to post here much. I have not had time to read any recent responses so until I do I wont respond to any questions.

Please believe me when I say I understand. My life has been chaotic as well with a number of things going on. If I didn't type around 50 WPM, I could hardly participate in this or other forums, given my penchant for windy and detailed explanations.

But you seem to have this long complicted position to try and confuse the issue.

My friend, it is not we who have confused the issue. If you go back and read the writings of the earliest Christians, you will find the same basic and foundational doctrines which we believe now. Some were in a very germinal state, granted, but their development over the centuries did not change the basic truth of what they taught.

Then the Reformers came along and said that 1500 years of Christianity, going all the way back to the apostles, was wrong. And in doing so, they opened a can of worms which is still all over the ground. It is like undoing a backlash on a fishing reel -- you have to work long and hard to save the line.

Think of this also. When the Church met to discuss the great issues of our Faith, such as the Council of Nicea and the issue of Christ's deity, they did not just open the Bible, quote a verse, and say "There, that settles that". The council met for a long time, and there was much discussion because the heretic Arias was quoting phrases from Holy Scripture to prove that Jesus was NOT God manifest in the Flesh. Complicated issues deserve proper response.

Mine is simple.

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



St. Paul was referring to those who wanted to go back to the Jewish rites which they had left behind. Remember, the vast majority of converts in the first century were Jews. Remember the problem that the apostles had with those of the "circumcision party" who said that if you were not circumcised, you couldn't obtain eternal life? This is what St. Paul is talking about here.

There is a vast difference between trying to use old and passed away Jewish rites to perfect yourself, and the doing of good works which we are called to do (Eph. 2: 10). We are not made perfect by either one actually. I don't say that good works perfect us, but they are the way that we "keep covenant" with God. We are called to the obedience of good works.

I wanted to keep the post a bit more narrow in topic. Thats why I asked you what are you trusting in to take you to heaven?

My relationship with Jesus the Christ. Entered into by baptism. Kept alive by obedience to His Law. Led by His grace to be able to keep that Law.

If you have answered me in a response forgive me I havnt had time to read it yet. I will get to it.

The Apostle Paul sent a tear-stained letter to the Philippian saints, writing: "I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil. 3:1. Notice that he does not say they are enemies of Christ; they are, rather, the enemies of the cross of Christ. They deny or diminish the redemptive values of the cross. There are many like this today. The church of Rome does not stand as an enemy of Christ; it traces heavily on His holy name. Yet it denies the cross by saying that the Blessed Virgin is co-redemptive.

This is entirely Mr. Ravenhill's opinion and is not based in any sort of facts at all When I entered our Lord's Church on Holy Saturday of 2001, I was asked a number of questions which had to do with my relationship to God. In none of these questions was I asked to worship, to trust in, to believe in, or to pledge myself to the Blessed Virgin Mary as some sort of savior or co-redemptrix. This is yet another case of a Protestant taking a term he does not understand, used in a context he is completely unfamiliar with, and loading it with theological misconceptions!! And it is, in the long run, bearing false witness!!

If this is so, why was she not also crucified? The Mormons use the name of Christ, yet they are astray on the atonement. Have we tears for them? Shall we face them without a blush when they accuse us of inertia at the Judgment Seat saying that they were our neighbors and an offense to us, but not a burden because they were lost? ..... Leonard Ravenhill

[mnwickens]

[mnwickens]

Somehow a huge chunk of what I typed was just lost and I do not have time to re-write.

Things are too busy for me to keep going with this thread but good answers are being given by Jim and others. So, for the time being I will just have to observe. If God wills and enables I will be back to post.

MNW

[Jim]

Quote:In none of these questions was I asked to worship, to trust in, to believe in, or to pledge myself to the Blessed Virgin Mary as some sort of savior or co-redemptrix. This is yet another case of a Protestant taking a term he does not understand, used in a context he is completely unfamiliar with, and loading it with theological misconceptions!!

Then I direct you to answer the questions in the "Immaculate Conception" thread, please sir.

[DefensorFidei]

Answer Posted.

I have to drive to Pittsburgh today. Will not be able to respond immediately to posts.

I wish you a Blessed Thanksgiving with your families, one and all of this forum.

Brother Ed