Revived Roman Empire

[Davo]

Another pre war leader planning for Pan European Union, of treaty observance, of World trade, etc. was Gustav Stresemann, Chancellor of the German Reich August 13 1923 till Nov 23 1923, then foreigh sectretary till his death Oct 3 1929. HITLER THE PAWN by Rudolph Olden 1936

[Davo]

I do not think that Europe will ever be united because Daniel 2, 43 says "they shall not cleave one to another,"

Men have been trying to unite Europe under the Popes ever since Charlemagne. They have all been unsuccessful. We should also note that the image stands all the time, there isn't a gap in the legs or feet.

Further, The Roman empire did not fall, it was removed by Constantine, fulfilling 2 Thess 2:5-7, thus making way for papal power to arise. I once read, can't remember where, that no one calling himself a Roman Emperor, ruled from Rome after Constantine, but from Milan and other cities. However with only short breaks the Popes have always ruled from Rome till the present day. Rome was succeded by 10 pagan Gothic nations who gave the pope his power.

[Jim]

Davo, not to criticize, but the Xenophon's Cyropaedia is a fictional account of Cyrus the great, not to be used as an historical reference.

[Jim]

Europe itself may never be united, but it is inarguable that there will be 10 nations who will form a confederacy from which the anti-christ will rise.

Quote:Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The united Roman Empire lasted until A.D. 364, when it split in two in which the more powerful western Roman Empire collapsed in A.D. 476, and the eastern empire continued until A.D. 1453.

Quote:A.D. 476 Odoacer the Scirian, commander and elected King of the German troops in Italy, deposes Romulus Augustus and resolves to rule independently, but nominally as the viceroy of the Roman Augustus of Constantinople. End of the western empire.

Quote:A.D. 1453 Fall of Constantinople to Mohammed the Conqueror. Death of Constantine XI.

Thus, the "Roman Empire" (western) ended the official rule of that point.

The revived Roman empire will take place on the same ground as the Original Western Roman empire, and the anti-christ will rise out of it.

If you want to say "removed" or "fall" is a matter of semantics, and really irrelevant, it simply marked the end of it.

We must understand something about the anti-Christ. He will not come from the catholic church. He will rise up a political figure and use a form of the catholic church to achieve his ends. He will not serve that universal church, that universal church will make an ends to a means to worship him.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Davo]

Jim

I know that some say that, but if you compare it with Herodotus, you will see that it is much nearer to Isaiah's prophecy. Herodotus says there were three different accounts of the upbringing of Cyrus and he chose the one which was most likely. If you read it, it is about the most unlikely account you could imagine. Apart from the violent childhood and daeth of Cyrus, compared to the peaceful childhood and death in Xenophon, we have Cyrus overthrowing his grandfather, Astyages, in Herdotus, but working with his uncle, Cyaxares in Xenophon. Josephus seems to agree with Xenophon although he doesn't seem to have read him. Josephus names the grandfather as Astyages, and the uncle as Darius the Mede, he says the Greeks had another name for him, but didn't seem to know it.

Most other histories of Cyrus seem to be based on Herodotus, whereas Xenophon fits in with Isaih and Daniel and also Josephus.

If we say that Xenophon is fictional, then I suppose it is easy to say Isaiah 44-45 is also, but then a lot of Christians do that anyway.

[Jim]

I am careful to stay away from any fictional greek study that tries to corroborate the bible.

The only greek I agree with is the original inspired tongues.

And the Oxford University Press themselves claim Xenophon's Cyropaedia as a fictional work.

Their quote:

Quote:This book is a literary study of the Cyropaedia, Xenophon's fictional account of Cyrus the Great and the founding of his empire. The Cyropaedia is a complex blend of various literary forms, and this book examines several of its literary genres. General discussions of the works of Xenophon's predecessors and contemporaries, in particular Herodotus, Plato, and Ctesias, are combined with a detailed commentary on select passages. Socrates--his life, ideas, and techniques of argument, is an indirect presence in the work, and the Socratic tenor of several of the dialogues in it is the subject of one chapter. The lovely Panthea, the fairest woman in Asia, is Xenophon's most colourful heroine and her story, along with the dramatic tales of the eunuch Gadatas, bereaved Gobyras, and defeated Croesus, are the focus of another section; special attention is paid to the question of Xenophon's originality in fashioning these tales. The symposia of the Cyropaedia, an intricate blend of Greek and Persian elements, are also investigated at length. The book concludes with an examination of Xenophon's ambivalent attitude towards his hero, Cyrus the Great: the author argues that both Xenophon and his hero are more complex than they might seem. 360p. (Oxford University Press 1993)

You would do well to trust in God's Word and not worry so much about what man has to say.

[George]

Has anyone other than me thought of the return of the Ottoman Empire?That is a phenomenon that is currently taking place. It could easily be 10 nations.

In Christ,
George

[Davo]

Jim

The Roman Empire was removed I think about 325. From that time the empire changed. The 10 gothic tribes took power in the west and gave their power to the popes. This fulfilled the scriptures which you say are still to be fulfilled.

The pope is the modern Roman Emperor, he has taken the title, Pont Max, which Caesar had. He is in fact Caesar and as the reformers and before them the Waldensians and other christians knew that he is Antichrist. He even calls himself such when he is Vicar of Christ, which means the same as Antichrist.

[Jim]

Here is the chronology of the western empire from that point:

Quote:337 May 22, death of Constantine the Great

337 Division of the empire between Constantine's three sons: Constantine II (west), Constans (middle), Constantius (east). Execution of all other princes of royal blood, but for the children Gallus and Julian.

338 Constantius attends to the war against Persia. First unsuccessful siege of Nisibis by Sapor II

340 Constans and Constantine II at war. Battle of Aquileia; death of Constantine II.

344 Persian victory at Singara

346 Second unsuccessful siege of Nisibis by Sapor II

350 Third siege of Nisibis. Owing to incursions of the Massagetae in Transoxiana, Sapor II makes truce with Constantius.
Magnentius murders Constans and becomes emperor in the west. Vetranio proclaimed emperor on the Danube frontier. On appearance of Constantius, Vetranio resumes allegiance.

351 Magnetnius defeated at the very bloody Battle of Mursa. Misrule by Gallus, left as Caesar in the east.

352 Italy recovered. Magnentius in Gaul.

353 Final defeat and death of Magnentius

354 Execution of Gallus. Julian at Athens

356 Julian dispatched as Caesar to Gaul. War with teh Alemanni, Quadi and Sarmatians. Military achievements by Julian.

357 Challenge by Sapor II

359 Sapor II invades Mesopotamia. Constantius goes to the east.

360 The Gallic army forces Julian to revolt. Julian marches down the Danube to Moesia.

361 Constantius dies. Julian the Apostate emperor.

362 Christians forbidden to teach. Julian's advance against Persians

363 Disaster and death of Julian. Retreat of the army which proclaims Jovian emperor. Humiliating peace with Persia. Renewed toleration decree.

364 Jovian nominates Valentinian and dies.
Valentinian associates his brother Valens as eastern emperor and takes the west for himself. Permanent duality of the empire inaugurated.

366 Damasus pope. Social and political influences become a feature of papal elections.

367 Valentinian sends his son Gratian as Augustus to Gaul. Theodosius the elder in Britain.

368 War of Valens with Goths

369 Peace with Goths

369-377 Subjugation of Ostrogoths by Hun invasion

374 Pannonian War of Valentinian. Ambrose Bishop of Milan

375 Death of Valentinian. Accession of Gratian, who associates his infant brother Valentinian II at Milan. Gratian first emperor to refuse the office of Pontifex Maximus. Theodosius the elder in Africa.

376 Execution of elder and retirement of younger Theodosius.

377 Valens receives and settles Visigoths in Moesia.

378 Gratian defeats Alemanni. Rising of Visigoths. Valens killed at disaster at Adrianople.

380 Gratian nominates the younger Theodosius as successor to Valens.

382 Treaty of Theodosius with Visigoths

383 Revolt of Maximus in Britain. Flight and death of Gratian. Theodosius recognizes Maximus in the west and Valentinian II at Milan.

386 Revolt of Gildo in Africa

387 Theodosius crushes Maximus, makes Arbogast the Frank master of the soldiers to Valentinian II

392 Murder of Valentinian II. Arbogast sets up Eugenius.

394 Fall of Arbogast and Eugenius. Theodosius makes his younger son Honorius western Augustus, with the Vandal Stilicho master of the soldiers.

395 Theodosius dies. Arcadius and Honorius emperors.

396 Alaric the Visigoth overruns Balkan peninsula.

397 Alaric checked by Stilicho, is given Illyria.

398 Suppression of Gildo in Afrca

402 Alaric invades Italy, checked by Stilicho

403 Alaric retires after defeat at Pollentia.
Ravenna becomes imperial headquarters.

404 Martyrdom of Telemachus ends gladiatorial shows.

405-406 German band under Radagaesus invades Italy but is defeated at Faesula

406/407 Alans, Sueves and Vandals invade Gaul

407 Revolt of Constantine III who withdraws the troops from Britain to set up a Gallic empire

408 Honorius puts Stilicho to death
Theodosius II (aged 7) succeeds Arcadius.
Alaric invades Italy and puts rome to ransom

409 Alaric proclaims Attalus emperor.

410 Fall of Attalus. Alaric sacks Rome but dies.

411 Athaulf succeeds Alaric as King of the Visigoths.
Constantine III crushed by Constantius

412 Athaulf withdraws from Italy to Narbonne

413 Revolt and collapse of Heraclius

414 Athaulf attacks the barbarians in Spain Pulcheria regent for her brother Theodosius II

415 Wallia succeeds Athaulf

416 Constantius the patrician marries Placidia

417 Visigoths establish themselves in Aquitania

420 Ostrogoths settled in Pannonia 425 Honorius dies. Valentinian III emperor. Placidia regent.

427 Revolt of Boniface in Africa

429 The Vandals, invited by Boniface, migrate under Geiseric from Spain to Africa, which they proceed to conquer.

433 Aetius patrician in Italy

434 Rugila king of the Huns dies; Attila succeds.

439 Geiseric takes Carthage. Vandal fleet dominant.

440 Geiseric invades Sicily, but is bought off.

441 Attila crosses Danube and invades Thrace

443 Attila makes terms with Theodosius II. Burgundians settled in Gaul.

447 Attila's second invasion

449 Attila's second peace.

450 Marcian succeeds Theodosius II. Marcian stops Hun tribute.

451 Attila invades Gaul. Attila heavily defeated by Aetius and Theodoric I the Visigoth at Ch?lons

452 Attila invades Italy but spares Rome and retires

453 Attila dies. Theodoric II King of the Visigoths

454 Overthrow of the Hun power by the subjected barbarians at the Battle of Netad.
Murder of Aetius by Valentinian III

455 Murder of Valentinian III and death of Maximus, his murderer. Geiseric sacks Rome, carrying of Eudoxia. Avitus proclaimed emperor of the Visigoths

456 Domination of both east and west by the masters of the soldiers, Aspar the Alan and Ricimer the Sueve.

457 Ricimer deposes Avitus and makes Majorian emperor. Marcian dies. Aspar makes Leo emperor.

460 Destruction of Majorian's fleet off Cartagena.

461 Deposition and death of Majorian. Libius Severus emperor.

465 Libius Severus dies. Ricimer rules as patrician. Fall of Aspar.

466 Euric, King of the Visigoths, begins conquest of Spain.

467 Leo appoints Anthemius western emperor

468 Leo sends great expedition under Basiliscus to crush Geiseric, who destroys it.

472 Ricimer deposes Anthemius and set up Olybrius. Death of Ricimer and Olybrius.

473 Glycerius western emperor

474 Julius Nepos western emperor. Leo dies and is succeeded by his infant grandson Leo II. Leo II dies and is succeeded by Zeno the Isaurian

475 Romulus Augustus last western emperor.
Usurpation of Basiliscus at Constantinople. Zeno escapes to Asia. Theodoric the Amal becomes King of the Ostrogoths

476 Odoacer the Scirian, commander and elected King of the German troops in Italy, deposes Romulus Augustus and resolves to rule independently, but nominally as the viceroy of the Roman Augustus of Constantinople.
End of the western empire.

No ten tribes or nations have ever risen from the ashes of the ancient Roman empire, none. Gothic tribes giving power to the pope has no bearing except for the fact of the one-world religion being established which the anti-christ will use for his own benefit. The "pope" will simply unite a one-world religion, but will be a mere puppet of the anti-christ.

Why do you think he will stand in the Holy Place and announce himself God? Do you think He will allow the Revived Roman religion to dominate him, not likely. The continuity is not there. The anti-christ will annihilate that religion and declare himself to be worshipped, not the one-world religion.

What has been stated has not been fulfilled. To say that it has, is to say we are already into the beginning of sorrows which will only last 3 and 1/2 years anyhow, not the hundreds of years in which you seem to be saying.

Anyhow, the pope has no power now, so that support has no standing.

[Jim]

I quoted:

Quote:The anti-christ will annihilate that religion and declare himself to be worshipped, not the one-world religion.

This is not entirely correct.

What will occur is that the ten nations, who unequivocally support the anti-christ will destroy the church(whore) at that time, so the beast will be worshipped:

Quote:Revelation
17:16
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Sorry about that, I needed to make myself clear.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Jim]

Quote:Has anyone other than me thought of the return of the Ottoman Empire?That is a phenomenon that is currently taking place. It could easily be 10 nations.

George, the only probelm with this is that the Ottoman empire was not one of the empires in Nebuchadnezzars dream.

[mnwickens]

Morning all,

Interesting posts from CJaKfOrEsT. May I suggest a thread on the historicist topic and deal with their beliefs one by one?

It just would seem a distraction to do it in this post in any detail. Just a suggestion.

[Jim]

Excellent bother, I will gladly start one.

It is called "Revelation - different viewpoints"

It can be found here:

http://www.fundamentalpreaching.com/foru...ut569.html
Love in Christ,

Jim

[RobNC1966]

From what I have studied and understand about Rome and the RCC, Rome is the current seat of power for Satan on this Earth. In the end times, the antichrist will arise from the people, not the church. The false prophet will, I believe, be the enpowered pope at that time. If any one religion would be in a position to become a "one-world" religion, Catholicism definitely fits the bill. The pope is easily the most recognized religious leader in the world today, and it seems to only make sense that the antichrist would use that notariety to promote his "one world religion" .

[Davo]

Jim Wrote:Excellent bother, I will gladly start one.

It is called "Revelation - different viewpoints"

It can be found here:

http://www.fundamentalpreaching.com/foru...ut569.html
Love in Christ,

Jim

But it is locked