The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

[Ebenezer]

MS Wrote:Scripture with scripture means exactly that, not reformed catholic dogma.

Davo Wrote:While I agree that preterism was invented by Catholics, so was futurism, which includes dispensationalism.

Once we are all properly labelled, we can concentrate on the man-of-straw arguments derived from our labels, rather then a proper Biblical discussion.

My preterism comes from a study of the Scriptures over many years, not from a study of catholic dogma, reformed or otherwise. And I have not read Augustine, despite Jim's extraordinary post.

The opening verses of Revelation establish that the events of Jesus' prophecy are imminent - for the blessing of his immediate readers - he was their companion in tribulation. (Not THE tribulation, but persecution all Christians can expect.)

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Bear in mind that John sees the temple, Jerusalem & the destruction in his visions, & the fulfilment of the words of the Lord to the women of Jerusalem. That surely requires serious consideration of a pre-70 date as prophesied by the Lord.

An end-of-century date is a rejection of the Lord's opening words. It requires the events prophesied to take place at the turn of the first century.

Literalizers reject the plain words of Scripture.

[Mongol Servant]

Eb,

Herod's temple, destroyed by Titus legions, had 4 courts, the one John sees only has one. John was not exiled to Patmos under Nero, but under Domitian in 95AD.

Do you guys honestly believe that we are living in the kingdom now? That would be the only logical conclusion under your view.

[Ebenezer]

Mongol Servant Wrote:Eb,

Herod's temple, destroyed by Titus legions, had 4 courts, the one John sees only has one. John was not exiled to Patmos under Nero, but under Domitian in 95AD.

Why do you not give Scripture references for your assertions? The fact that John is told, "the court which is without the temple leave out" does not mean there were no other courts.


Do you guys honestly believe that we are living in the kingdom now? That would be the only logical conclusion under your view.

You draw conclusions by your reasoning from what I write. Clearly we are not living in the ultimate kingdom of the NH&NE. We can seek to understand by Scripture whether Christ has a Kingdom in this Gospel age.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,

Also is Jesus presently the King?

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

Lam 5:19 Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

If Christ is presently reigning over his people & his kingdom, how do we view the godless situation that has persisted down the centuries?

Hbr 12:1 ¶ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

We are citizens of our Lord's kingdom, living in a world that is condemned, yet God in his patience allows it to continue in rebellion against his Christ so that he can call out & save his redeemed people.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Davo]

Mongol Servant Wrote:Eb,

Herod's temple, destroyed by Titus legions, had 4 courts, the one John sees only has one. John was not exiled to Patmos under Nero, but under Domitian in 95AD.

Do you guys honestly believe that we are living in the kingdom now? That would be the only logical conclusion under your view.

As Eb said it was "the court which is without the temple" that John was to leave out, that is the outer court.

The temple now is the church. Wesley got it wrong when he wrote "Never more your temples leave." There is only one temple and that is the church. Eph 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

And if you read the next few verses you will see that the Jewish Believers and the gentiles are part of the same church.

Especially see verse 6.......the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel

[Jim]

Quote:My preterism comes from a study of the Scriptures over many years, not from a study of catholic dogma, reformed or otherwise. And I have not read Augustine, despite Jim's extraordinary post

Yet I am continually called a Scofield follower. Hard to take ones own medicine, isn't it?

Either way, he is solely responsible for many of the thoughts purported today over incorrect views on eschatology. Paul knew things like this would happen that is one of the sole reasons for penning the epistle to the church at Thessalonica. He penned for the exact reasons to battle doctrines like preterism and historicism.

[Jim]

Quote:And if you read the next few verses you will see that the Jewish Believers and the gentiles are part of the same church

Nobody disagrees with this, we are all part of the age of grace, until the 70th week occurs, in which time the bride is taken away and ushers in the time of Jacob. The bride consists of all of the election. When the bride leaves(that which is taken out of the way), then it is time for the Lord to finish with His people(the Jews)

[Mongol Servant]

Well, Eb, I have given you FACTS - John was exiled to Patmos under Domitian's reign in 95AD, if you have other HISTORICAL evidence, produce it.

And, as has been clearly documented from scripture, John only sees ONE court, and he KNEW Herod's temple had 4 of them. Produce any other tangible evidence. As has been documented from scripture, the anti-Christ has NOT sat on the throne in THAT temple! That's pretty simple to realize - history bears it out!

As Jim, and others have pointed out - you and Dave - are trying to intertwine the gospel accounts and The Lord's teaching to JEWS, within the context of New Testament church doctrine, which is IMPOSSIBLE. Paul clearly stated that the CHURCH DOCTRINE given to him by The Lord Jesus was a MYSTERY - see ROMANS 16:25-26, concealed from the foundation of the world until it was revealed to HIM!

ANY type of preterist/historicist view of Revelation would have to mean we are presently in the Kingdom and clearly/unequivocally WE'RE NOT!

[Ebenezer]

Mongol Servant Wrote:Well, Eb, I have given you FACTS - John was exiled to Patmos under Domitian's reign in 95AD, if you have other HISTORICAL evidence, produce it.

There is a full discussion here: Dating Revelation

You might like to point to the "FACTS" you claim.

[Mongol Servant]

Ebenezer Wrote:

Mongol Servant Wrote:Well, Eb, I have given you FACTS - John was exiled to Patmos under Domitian's reign in 95AD, if you have other HISTORICAL evidence, produce it.

There is a full discussion here: Dating Revelation

You might like to point to the "FACTS" you claim.

Here ya go: http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=232

Much better discussion with verifiable FACTS.

Glad to be of service!

[Ebenezer]

MS - the FACTS are the same, only the interpretation & significance differ.

Back to the Bible & the opening verses of Rev. which establish the imminent time frame, which agrees with AD 70 , but what was at hand in AD 95?

[Davo]

Ebenezer Wrote:MS - the FACTS are the same, only the interpretation & significance differ.

Back to the Bible & the opening verses of Rev. which establish the imminent time frame, which agrees with AD 70 , but what was at hand in AD 95?

1:3 ¶ Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

"The time is at hand" supports the historicist position.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This is immediately followed by the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia. This supports the teaching that the letters have two meanings. A description of the state of the churches at that time and a description of the church in various stages of its history.

Immediately after those letters we read Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Things which
are, and the things which shall be hereafter was not part of the following chapters only things which must be hereafter, which included the second part of verse 1:19, ie it refers to the same period.

[Mongol Servant]

Davo Wrote:

Ebenezer Wrote:MS - the FACTS are the same, only the interpretation & significance differ.

Back to the Bible & the opening verses of Rev. which establish the imminent time frame, which agrees with AD 70 , but what was at hand in AD 95?

1:3 ¶ Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

"The time is at hand" supports the historicist position.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This is immediately followed by the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia. This supports the teaching that the letters have two meanings. A description of the state of the churches at that time and a description of the church in various stages of its history.

Immediately after those letters we read Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Things which
are, and the things which shall be hereafter was not part of the following chapters only things which must be hereafter, which included the second part of verse 1:19, ie it refers to the same period.

I think all the positions/labels, etc have clouded your judgment:

The Lord also spoke in Matthew about the kingdom of heaven being AT HAND. Do you think we're in the kingdom now? 2 Thessalonians 2:2 also says that the day of Christ is AT HAND. Do you think Christ has returned? 1 Peter 4:7 says that the end of ALL things is AT HAND, and that was writtten in 64AD. Have ALL things ended?

The things hereafter are listed in very graphic detail, and again, the anti-Christ has not sat on the throne of a REBUILT Jewish temple.

Again, Nero was not an exiler - he was a killer - John would have been killed; but Domitian WAS an exiler, and John ended up on Patmos, to write in 95AD. The revealing of the prophecy to John was AT HAND in 95AD.

[Ebenezer]

Clearly we are not going to agree on the three basic positions represented here, so let us more forward to present the lessons for ourselves that we learn from our understanding of the 2 witnesses.

The witnesses are the Scriptures - the Law & the Prophets - that were rejected by the nation of Israel when they rejected first Christ, then his Gospel proclaimed by his Apostles.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

As a preterist, I dare not say, "that Scripture is fulfilled, the warnings no longer apply." As Paul wrote:
1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
.....
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We would be very foolish to boast against the Jews, for as sinners we are in the same condemnation apart from Christ. The whole culture of antisemitism down the ages is repugnant.

In our own day there is a pro-national Israel theology among evangelicals that supports the concept of a return of Jews to the land they were scattered from by the righteous judgment of God when the last vestiges of the old covenant were wiped off the land.

The emphasis on the present return is occasioned by the dreadful persecution by Hiltler & Stalin & much of Europe. "Our" hard won freedom clearly did not result in universal freedom. Europe saw the opportunity to expel the Jews in the direction of Israel, while Christians saw that as a wonderful fulfilment of "end times" prophecy.

Black Americans had a long struggle to obtain civil rights in free America.

Sadly two generations of Arab residents of Palestine, both Christian & Moslem, have suffered from the return of the Jews.

The church has no commission to make prophecy happen. Our commission is to preach Christ to sinners regardless of their religion. At present the pro-Israel policy is prejudicing the Gospel in Moslem lands as Christians are seen as lackies of America & its wars against "terrorism."

We need to get back to a right "Gospel of Christ" emphasis & proclaim the new covenant Christ died to bring about.

Today's "end times" emphasis distorts the Gospel.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[Jim]

Quote:The witnesses are the Scriptures - the Law & the Prophets - that were rejected by the nation of Israel when they rejected first Christ, then his Gospel proclaimed by his Apostles.

Really? Isn't another word for the scriptures called the Word of God? In other words, the Word is Jesus Christ. The distorted view that the Word is anything other than Jesus Christ is fallacy.

The two witnesses are two literal people. Remember the transfiguration on the mount? Who was there? Or was that a figment of Peter, James, and Johns' imagination?

The other argument is the fact that if you think that the two witnesses are the law and the prophets, means that you believe that the law and the prophets only existed here on earth for 1,260 days:

Quote:Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

You're uspeculation of the 4th verse making them a "spiritual" occurence in some whatever, holds no water. The representation of the 4th verses describes their role throughout their times as Moses and Elijah:

Quote:11:6
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Proof that they will be flesh and blood:

Quote:11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The simple fundamental fact of the matter is Eb, is that anyone with an idea of eschatology like yours can pretty much make anything in history fit whatever they want it to. Scientists with theories do it every day when they have no proof, yet ardently defend their erroneous theories to the death.

[Jim]

I believe Mongol Servant and I have given facts and proof, you have provided none.

I am closing this argument as I believe, as George has pointed out well, that we have completely ignored the blessings of this board in edifying, and praising God with good things.