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Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 04:10 PM

I'm glad that things are calmer now.

You have many questions, and they all deserve a response. However, I think, because the number of them that you have, it would be inefficient to answer them all on this thread. I'm not sure about the other Catholics here, but I will start a thread as soon as I get a chance to answer your first question. Then, as time goes on, we can move on. That will stop bunny trails, I believe.

Give me some time and I will start the conversation off. I look forward to the sharing of ideas and our faith.

In Christ our Lord.

kitefish · Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 04:25 PM

Agent_Smith Wrote:I'm glad that things are calmer now.

You have many questions, and they all deserve a response. However, I think, because the number of them that you have, it would be inefficient to answer them all on this thread. I'm not sure about the other Catholics here, but I will start a thread as soon as I get a chance to answer your first question. Then, as time goes on, we can move on. That will stop bunny trails, I believe.

Give me some time and I will start the conversation off. I look forward to the sharing of ideas and our faith.

In Christ our Lord.

If Jim if it suits, I will follow Agent Smiths lead.

***Jim*** · Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 04:43 PM

I have absolutely no problem with that, myself. I ask all members to please be patient here as this unfolds. Agent Smith had an excellent idea, one I was thinking of also to answer each question at a time to avoid all of the trails. One at a time, and we should try to limit it to the exact subject the question addresses. If we come to the conclusion that either 1) We agree upon the solution, or 2) We are at an impass of odds, then we should move on to the next question. I hope you allow me the jurisdiction of asking the questions and your answering them, since you should be the defender. I will try to ask without sarcasm, hidden agendas, or ulterior motives.

Also, I will ask Ray at some point to create a new category specifically for Catholicism and it's doctrine, at his discretion. It will be solely up to him. I will also ask him if it ok for us to do this.

I simply ask that all posts be foremost glorifying to the Lord Jesus Christ and we avoid personal attacks completely.

Also note that at any time Ray, our Site Adminsitrator, has the authority and right to stop this at anytime at his liesure. I do not know if he is aware of this thread thus far, but when he posts you will know it. I also want to make sure that everyone understands that my brothers in Christ here are dear friends and brothers of mine. I greatly respect their views and agree with them almost unequivocally. Brother Jim Norman, Pastor of Northside Baptist Church in Eden, NC is a wonderful, humble man of God and I respect him greatly.

Let the Lord put a watch at our mouths and a guard at out tongues. May He receive all glory honor and praises.

Again, let me reiterate that at any time that we feel the integrity of this site is not glorifying to God, or in any we see fit, at the Lord's guidance, we will stop this.

In Christ our Lord,

Jim

kitefish · Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 04:59 PM

Jim

It is your site and I am happy to abide by your rules.

Thank you for your gracious welcome.

Byzantine_Catholic · Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 05:30 PM

Quote:And I have not treated you with a benign heart either I am afraid, and that places shame upon me. I am not apologizing for my stance, but my heart at the time of taking it.

No you didn't.

You know, despite being "papists" we are human beings and we do have feelings. Like all human beings, even if we are dead wrong (which we hope to prove differently if you shall allow), we desire to be treated with a minimum of respect.

Some of us have had just about enough of perjoratives and ad hominum attacks, therefore, it should be quite understandable when we respond in kind (even though it is not particularly forgiving or Christlike on our part). Perhaps someday Fundamentalists might begin to understand this and try to engage us in a more irenic conversation rather than the standard abusive attacks which grow so tiring.

Having read your most recent posts, I will in turn offer my sincere apologies for my dive in the ad hominum sewer and the name calling which I engaged in. Such behavior from both of us is far too easy. What is harder is to engage in respect for each other despite our differences, which can be quite severe and straining. I will ask you to forgive me for the name calling which I engaged in over at Catholic Convert.

As for your request on the Aramaic. Speaking strictely from the viewpoint of finding absolute proof in the Bible, you and I both know there is nothing in the Bible which addresses which language our Lord spoke. However, it is most like that Jesus, being first and foremost a Jew speaking to Jews, would have spoken the "home tongue" so to speak. That would be the only proofs I could offer, other than the few utterances in Aramaic which we see Him speaking in the scriptures.

If I may --

It would be very helpful to learning to limit the discussion to one subject at a time to avoid hopping around and to stay focused. Perhaps a thread could be started on a single topic at a time, since this is the doctrine part of the forum.

At one time -- about 5 years ago -- I shared the exact feelings you do regarding the Catholic Faith. (If you doubt me, send me your email addy and I will send you some of my more vitriolic writings against the Church which I kept.) I can understand, in some ways yet, how you feel. What I would like to do -- if permitted to stay -- would be to use the scriptures to show you how the Catholic Faith is quite proveable, a finding which at first shocked me, then horrified me as I realized that I had nowhere else to go but the Church for the Faith once delivered to the apostles, but then, as I continued to study and overcome my fears, delighted me in that I realized that this was indeed the Faith which was the Christian Faith for the last 2000 years.

I met many people during my 25 years as both a Fundamentalist and an Evangelical who expressed to me a desire to have a "New Testament Church". In the Byzantine Catholic Church, I have found the closest thing possible to that New Testament worship form.

After the worst of all possible starts in this forum, I do hope that we can proceed from here with a new start and a respect for each other.

Yours in Christ,

Brother Ed

Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 07:16 PM

Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 08:04 PM

Praise God.... Isn't God good.....He uses all things for His Glory!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, God has used me here and I feel fruit has been produced out of a bad situation...... May you all come before the throne of our Lord Jesus Christ and ask for the assistance of the Holy Spirit before you fingers hit the keys.... that you would be charitable towards one another and ask earnestly that that the Holy Spirit would guide you into His truth and not rest on the words of man.

Peace to you all and may God richly bless you!

Bessy

Sun Nov 20, 2005 , 08:34 PM

Jim,

That is absolutely fine. If there is a particular question you have in mind to ask first, feel free to start a topic on it at any time and we will keep our eyes peeled.

It is your forum, and you are the moderator, so, if anything gets out of line or if you wish to end it that is your perogative. I believe it won't get to that point, but we will respect your board.

I still extend a heartfelt offer to come speak with us at our board sometime (every member here is welcome). We have a forum specifically for Catholic apologetics where protestants can come and ask questions and discuss our faiths together. If you wish to start one here, that is perfectly fine. If you wish to come use ours, that is fine too. Either way, I look forward to speaking with anyone who wants to speak AND listen.

Peace to you all.

***Jim*** · Mon Nov 21, 2005 , 12:05 AM

OK, I have been speaking to the Site Administrator, and he and I will work together to decide what way is best to broach this.

Until then, please be patient.

Jim

***Raymond*** · Mon Nov 21, 2005 , 01:45 AM

All this talk about Aramaic and latin is fine but the real crux of the matter is what does the church of Rome believe about the Gospel that saves men from their sin?

What does she teach her congregations about salvation? How do Catholics become saved?

Our position is this.

By grace alone
Through faith alone
In Christ alone.

The Apostle Paul makes it clear that there is, and can only be, one Gospel. Any man that preaches anything else than what he preached is under the curse of God.

Any man that adds to the Gospel of Christ is under the curse of God.

Quote:Galatians Chapter 1: 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;

22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

24 And they glorified God in me.

I will start another thread and would like the discussion to stay central to this topic.

It s late and im tired but I will be looking to post more tomorrow.

Look for the thread entitleled Gospel or Curse.

Jesus Christ is the true Priest who can forgive all your sins; go to him at once, without the intervention of these pretenders. Make confession to him! Seek absolution from him! The Holy Ghost alone can cause you to be born again, and the grace of God alone can bring you to glory. Avoid Puseyite and Romish foxes, for they seek to make a gain of you, and lead you not to Jesus, but to their Church and all its mummeries. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and not in these deceivers.

Charles Spurgeon.

CJEN · Mon Nov 21, 2005 , 02:17 PM

I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. I am not a doctrinal expert, but I believe I know enough to answer your questions. I will focus on the ones that I know the best.

Jim Wrote:3) Why does the Catholic Church have it's members confess sin to a priest?

Because that is how Christ intended it. Here is scripture to back that up:

John 20:20-23 "Jesus said to them again, ?Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.? And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ?Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.?"

James 5:15-16 "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

And here are some quotes from the Early Church Father regarding confession:

"In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner washes his pillow in tears, when his tears are day and night his nourishment, and when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who says, "I said, 'To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity', and you forgave the disloyalty of my heart." Origen, 244 AD

Jim Wrote:Why does the Catholic Church use alcoholic wine for "communi*n"?

First of all, I take offense to you blaspheming the Eucharist by calling it communi*n. Secondly, Jesus and the Apostles drank wine with dinner. That was what was in the cup when He passed it at the Last Supper and instituted the Eucharist.

Jim Wrote:7) Why do catholic pray to "Saints" and "Priests" and "Mary"?

Prayer is merely a form on communication. When we pray to a saint or to Mary, we are merely asking their intercession, or help. We are asking them to pray for us. This is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for you. And no, it is not necromancy, as these people are not dead. They are alive in Heaven with the Lord.

Jim Wrote:9) Why do you use so many materials above and beyond that of the bible, God's Holy Word? Do you think God's Word is not good enough?

To understand the Bible, you must understand where it came from. That is why we refer to writings of the ECF's. The Catechism is just a "manual" that outlines our faith. Nothing more. God's Holy Word is more than good enough for me. The Catechism and writing of the ECF's just help us to understand it a little better. Who better read interpretations of the scripture from than the ECF's. They were around much earlier than we were.

***Jim*** · Mon Nov 21, 2005 , 03:32 PM

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere. I was starting to wonder what the differences were.

Ok, first:

Quote:Jim wrote:
3) Why does the Catholic Church have it's members confess sin to a priest?

Because that is how Christ intended it. Here is scripture to back that up:

John 20:20-23 "Jesus said to them again, ?Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.? And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ?Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.?"

This is not from the KJV, plain and simple. As I stated before, if it is not KJV, or based upon the Alexandrian/Majority text manuscripts, then we reject it completely.

KJV:

Quote:John 20:20
And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Matt. 9:5
For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

and

4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

and

8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

130:4
But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

I think you are misconstruing the action of forgiveness. the action of forgiveness requires that it is remembered no more. A human cannot do this. Only God can. He casts our iniquities from His as far as the east is from the west to remember them no more. Man cannot do this, it is impossible. So how can man stand in God's place and say that this is done? How does man know that this comes from a repentant heart? He cannot. Therefore, only One who can see into the heart knows enough to forgive sins. When remember someones transgressions, we have not truly forgiven them.

You have supplied one verse that really does not shed light on the actual sin forgiveness of anything other than the Holy Spirit which was bestowed upon them. This is referenced to no more than the other passages I have given up to and including forgiving each other for each others trangressions against each other.

Next,

Quote:First of all, I take offense to you blaspheming the Eucharist by calling it communi*n. Secondly, Jesus and the Apostles drank wine with dinner. That was what was in the cup when He passed it at the Last Supper and instituted the Eucharist.

The simple fact that you take offense, is evidence that you are beginning to purport you own views, not the Lords. If the Word of God can defend itself, then why are you offended. It's matters nothing to me what you say against me, as you will have to answer for it, not me. This is not said in malice, so do not take it that way.

And yet, the Word of God uses a completety different greek meaning during the communi*n, all other references were "gleukos" or "oinos". The reference to the Lords' supper was nothing more than the "fruit of the vine", grape juice, plain and simple:

read here:
http://www.fundamentalpreaching.com/modu...c5d899339e

next,

Quote:Prayer is merely a form on communication. When we pray to a saint or to Mary, we are merely asking their intercession, or help. We are asking them to pray for us. This is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for you. And no, it is not necromancy, as these people are not dead. They are alive in Heaven with the Lord.

First, there is only one intercessor:

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And there is only one mediator:

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Please provide scripture to back up where praying to anyone other than Jesus Christ/God/The Holy Spirit, is biblical.

Quote:The Catechism and writing of the ECF's just help us to understand it a little better.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Does this make it sound like the Word of God needs any help for us to understand it better?

Just my thoughts,

Jim

Mon Nov 21, 2005 , 03:38 PM

Jim, that portion of John IS IN the KJV. I have mentioned it already on the other thread. It is nearly identical.

Also, the portion of Matthew that you cited about healing the man with palsy, you are leaving a key portion out of the story. Later, he gives the disciples the authority to bind and loose, which is Christ's ability alone and he has the authority to give. I discussed it in full on the other thread.

***Jim*** · Mon Nov 21, 2005 , 04:55 PM

Are you getting the ESV and KJV mixed up?:

ESV:

Quote:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, ?Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.? 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ?Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.?

KJV:

Quote:20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Tue Nov 22, 2005 , 06:17 PM

Quote:Are you getting the ESV and KJV mixed up?:

Honestly, you are being somewhat ridiculous. Look at the two translations verse for verse:

20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

21 Jesus said to them again, ?Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.?
20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ?Receive the Holy Spirit.
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.?
20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Now tell me, is there any fundamental difference in those two translations that negate anything I have said? Of course not, they are nearly identical! My analysis of confession is not tainted in any way, because the KJV says exactly the same thing.