New Guy (And A Music Question)

[Tafkam]

Hello, I'm new to these parts, and I hope you won't mind if I ask a question or two.

I am an adult, married, with three children, and I've been a born again Christian since I was around 10 years old.

For most of my adult life, I have made my living in itinerate music ministry, as a singer, songwriter, worship leader, performing artist, etc. And the style with which I am most closely identified would be Contemporary Christian.

It was a few years ago that I discovered the Fundamental sites and churches, and noticed that their stand on music seemed quite strong. I also must confess that I'm not quite sure where many of the conclusions on music have been drawn, because my experiences as an artist in the CCM genre paint a starkly different picture than what I find on many of these sites.

I'd be interested in knowing more, if anyone would like to discuss it with me. Rest assured, this is not an attempt at harrassment or to engage in mudslinging, but hopefully a friendly, civil discussion (with some measure of debate) over what is obviously a hot button issue.

Thanks for your time!

[Davo]

Firstly, can I say welcome to the forum.

The position of "Worship Leader" is not one that I find in the Holy Scrptures. I find Elders, Deacons, Evangelists and Teachers, but not "Worship Leaders". Remember, that Mary worshiped the Lord Jesus by sitting at Jesus' feet, not by singing to him. Luke 10: 38-42

I do not feel qualified to comment in deatil about CTM, as I don't listen to it, but what I have heard it seems to be more entertainment than worship.

A few months ago here in England, we had some posters delivered to our Church advertising "An Evening of Worship with Graham Kendrick." Tickets were £12 each, that's about $24. They were expecting about 10.000 to attend. I posted a question on the RTeachout Trust Forum, asking since when did we charge for worship. One reply was that it was a concert and that Graham Kendrick was a professional musician and that it was natural for a charge to be made. I always think of David in this type of case, and wonder how much he charged to sing the Psalms.

When we have concerts, it is entertainment in my opinion.

Love in Christ

[Tafkam]

Davo,

Thanks for the response. I would note that we also don't find Pastors in the Scripture, at least as they are defined today, as the gatherings of believers were much different then.

However, we do find singers mentioned in scripture, and the Psalms have quite a bit to say about the subject of music as worship. So I don't feel I'm of base in using the term "worship leader" as it applies to music.

And I can't speak for guys like Graham Kendrick, as the issue of money is a hot one in Christian music circles. I do what I do full time, so obviously I need to make something, but unlike many, I have refrained from asking set fees, instead by and large going for whatever a church is able to provide. If you met me in person, you'll notice I've never missed a meal, so obviously God has provided in this area!

Concerts as worship or entertainment? I think there's a place for both (strictly my opinion, of course), just so long as they are identified as such. I have a problem as well with concerts being labeled as worship when they are not. Call a concert a concert and a worship service a worship service.

More recently, I've gone out of my way to avoid the word "concert", because of the entertainment conntations, as well as the fact that it denotes separation (I'm performing, you're listening). I really try to present what I do as a time of worship and celebration, and (if I'm successful) get the focus away from me (even I don't think I'm interesting enough to command attention for an hour!)

[Davo]

[/b]Tafkam

Thanks for your reply.

I feel that on the few ocassions that I have been to churches with CCM, I have always got the impression that it is the music that is worshipped, and that if the music stopped, then there would be no more worshippers there. In the case of well known musicians, from those I have spoken to who follow them, it is the musicians that they worship.

Here are a few references to worship in the New Testament.:

Mt 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mt 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And in regard to pastors:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Love in Christ

David

[Tafkam]

I will wholeheartedly agree that there are those who develop an unhealthy attachment to a given artist. My favorite CCM group is NewSong, because I love their music, and their lyrics are solid, but also because I know the guys and their hearts for ministry. They exist for no other reason than to go after the lost. That heart for ministry has been evident in every one of their concerts I have attended. Always bold in message, always a clear presentation of the Gospel, and always an invitation for people to accept Christ.

Our church does some CCM, balanced well with hymns, and I have never gotten the impression that the music is worshipped. Some Sundays the music may lean more CCM, other Sundays it may be hymn heavy, and yet others (most often) find a good mix of the two. But only speaking for me, and I believe, my church, we have gathered to worship the Lord God Almighty, not the newest guitar licks or coolest drum riffs.

I am curious, Davo, what leads you to believe that it is the music that is worshipped? I've been on the road and a part of this type of music for a long time and while there are those who are guilty of what your speak of, they are not the majority by any stretch....

[Brother Tim]

My experiences with CCM has been similar to what Dave describes. It seems that the focus becomes the music instead of the LORD. The artists are brought to the center of attention. The churches at which I have been where there was a "praise team" or "worship team" or other name all had a noticeable similarity, the preaching had become less the purpose for gathering than the singing. The length of time spent was disproportionate.

The use of the traditional hymns in the church has an element that seems to be missing in CCM. That is the instruction of doctrine. CCM is almost single dimensional - the personal expression of praise. The Scriptures speak of "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" as distinct forms of music to be used to "teach and admonish one another". (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16)

A good site that extensively covers the problems with CCM is WayofLife.org. David Cloud, the author of the site is tough, but Biblically accurate.

[Tafkam]

If I may, praise choruses are not hymns. They were never intended to be. To down a praise chorus for not being a hymn is like downing a Chevrolet for not being a Cadillac.

And yes, there are praise choruses that are lacking, but there are many that are very well written. "Lord I Lift Your Name On High" contains just as much, if not more doctrine than is found in some hymns, namely the complete description of Jesus' life and earthly mission, and Hillsong's "Worthy Is The Lamb" is a wonderful reflection on Jesus' blood sacrifice for each of us.

Likewise, there are some shallow hymns out there as well. I would submit that there are good and bad apples to be found in both musical camps.

Quote:It seems that the focus becomes the music instead of the LORD. The artists are brought to the center of attention. The churches at which I have been where there was a "praise team" or "worship team" or other name all had a noticeable similarity, the preaching had become less the purpose for gathering than the singing. The length of time spent was disproportionate.

Again, I'm not sure how to address this, because I'm in different churches every week and have yet to experience this. In my own church, the music is only a third of the service. And in my own opinion, anybody who stands on a stage, whether it be a singer or a preacher, is going to temporarily become the center of attention, to a degree, no matter how much they may wish not to.

And yes, I'm familiar with Way Of Life, although I do wish he'd post the articles in their entirety. I'm curious about this, but not enough to send him money. You have to remember, from my viewpoint he is questioning and making accusations about not only my heart and motivations, but also those of numerous other brothers and sisters that I love dearly.

To his credit, though, I have corresponded witrh David a few times and always found him quite gracious and polite.

[Brother Tim]

Tafkam,
May I ask you a related question? What text do you use primarily for your personal study? What does your home church use?

My purpose for this: My opinion is that these two issues are related. In my experience is that churches and individuals who use CCM as a significant part of worship tend to also use one of the modern texts.

This may not be the case with you and the churches that you serve. That is why I am curious.

I also am of the opinion that a number of the modern-style choruses are good to use in the worship service, and should not be rejected by the church simply because they are more modern or lively than the traditional hymns. It does seem, however, that the wide usage of the choruses parallels the divergence from "the faith once delivered to the saints".

[Tafkam]

Tim,

I use the New King James Bible myself. My pastor usually utilizes different translations, KJV included.

I am also of the opinion that you do not throw something out just because it is old. Our church utilizes the old/new mix very well, often times with hymns and choruses complimenting each other, such as "Here I Am To Worship" seguing into "I Surrender All", or "O Worship The King" going into "He Is The King". I'm glad to see hymns making a comeback.

Funny story: I'm in the car with my 15 year old daughter the other day, and a new arrangement of "Come Thou Fount" came on the radio. She turned up the volume dial a bit and said "Dad, you gotta hear this great new song!" I was a bit embarrassed, but went on to tell her that "Come Thou Fount" had been around for a while!

[Brother Tim]

It is sad that the great hymns of the faith that have existed some for hundreds of years are strange and new to this generation.

[Davo]

Yes Bro Tim, I agree.

When we were in Luxembourg about three years ago, we visited the International Church which had an American pastor. He had just returned from the U.S. and said that since his previous visit most churches he knew had stopped singing hymns and only had choruses. He also said that some in his church also wanted to follow that trend, but he was resisting it.

[Tafkam]

I would agree that it is not wise to follow a trend, even a worship trend. I would also submit that we should not arbitrarily turn away newer songs just because they are new.

It is always my prayer that we would worship in spirit and in truth, out of a heart of worship and love for God. And whether that worship is expressed through "Amazing Grace" or "Indescribable", through piano and strings or guitars through Marshall stacks, it's ultimately the heart of the worshipper that determines it's worth as an offering of worship.

Thanks for taking the time to respond fellas!

[Brother Tim]

Quote:From Tafkam,
I use the New King James Bible myself. My pastor usually utilizes different translations, KJV included.

My earlier statement linking CCM and modern texts seems to be supported again. This is my greatest concern for CCM. Those who remove the old landmarks in music and replace them with the modern styles also tend to leave the Pure Word for the modern counterfeits.

[Tafkam]

Quote:Those who remove the old landmarks in music and replace them with the modern styles also tend to leave the Pure Word for the modern counterfeits.

I'm wondering why "modern" equals "bad". And if you have read my other posts, you will see that I for one have not left the old landmarks of music for modern styles, as I very much enjoy the hymns and utilize them quite prominently in my own musical programs.

And what about CCM artists that do use the KJV? (there are several)

[Mongol Servant]

Brother Tim Wrote:

Quote:From Tafkam,
I use the New King James Bible myself. My pastor usually utilizes different translations, KJV included.

My earlier statement linking CCM and modern texts seems to be supported again. This is my greatest concern for CCM. Those who remove the old landmarks in music and replace them with the modern styles also tend to leave the Pure Word for the modern counterfeits.

I learned a very valuable lesson from our church's song leader, Dr Doug Jordan - he told me the very best way to determine if the music/song is really God-honoring and Christ exalting, is this: if the music starts and your foot starts "tapping", it's not of God, but; if the music starts, and you begin to think about heavenly, godly, and spiritual things, it should honor The Lord.
This has helped me stay right, music-wise, 100% of the time. Also, I noticed that Sister Riplinger's daughter, Bryn, has a rather lengthy note on "Why Music Matters" at http://www.avpublications.com. It is newsletter #5 and it has some very good info on the modern contemporary unChristian music circulating today. Many of these folks, if saved at all, came out of a rock/blues/C&W background and have not been taught to let that "constant rhythm/beat" go. You can't put God's words with the devil's beat and call it worship. The background of many of our faithful hymns should be a good indicator of what's wrong with this new fangled "sway with the beat" music. Many of our hymn writers loved the word of God, The Lord Jesus, winning souls, seeing God change lives, His mercy, His grace, His love, and made that the primary focus of the hymn (read Psalms). Today's CCM-crowd engenders some of the most anti-scriptural atmosphere that I have ever seen. You're right, Davo - these guys make more of the music itself or the singers than of The Lord's mercy, love, and grace. I have yet to see an exception. Ask any of them, how often they are in a local church service or when was the last time they personally opened their Bible, and showed someone how to be saved! Keep in mind, too, that many theologians believe when Lucifer fell from heaven, the angels he took with him, were the musically-gifted ones. This coincides with what Bro Tim said, 1st Satan attacks the word of God, then 2nd, he attacks the worship of God. Just some thoughts.