Hello

[Diolectic]

I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, that He was born of a virgin, and was in the form of sinful flesh, lived a sinless life, provided for the atonement of our sins by His substitutionary death on the cross, was bodily raised from the dead, ascended back to the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us.

My supreme desire is to know Christ and be conformed to His image by the power of the Holy Spirit. I am not denominational, nor am I opposed to denominations as such, only to their over-emphasis of the doctrinal differences that have led to the division of the Body of Christ.

What ever God will give us, He has already given to us in His Son.
What ever God will say to us, He has already said it in His Word.

I believe worship of God should be intelligent. Therefore, our services to HIM are to be with great emphasis upon Prayer and the teaching of the Word of God that He might save.

I believe that people are not born with a "sin nature" but, recieved the "original death" from Adam and therefore we are in weakness, natural, earthy, and have a living soul(Corinth 15:42-45) that needs to be spiritualy united with Christ.
From our first accountable sin we became spiritualy separated from God and responsible for our own sin, but that salvation, redemption, and forgiveness are freely offered to all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. When a person repents of sin and accepts Jesus Christ sacrifice on His cross and acknowlage His resurection, trusting Him to save, that person is immediately born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit, all his/her sins are forgiven, and that person becomes a child of God, destined to spend eternity with the Lord.

Eternal Life is knowing Jesus, the only true God(John 17:3). Eternal Life causes a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you. In other words, just as you don't work to get a job; but it is that you work because you have a job. So it is that you don't work to be Righteous; but that you work because you are righteous.
These works of faith are works from Love.

[Jim]

If you believe this:

Quote:recieved the "original death" from Adam and therefore we are in weakness, natural, earthy, and have a living soul

but not this:

Quote:I believe that people are not born with a "sin nature"

Please be very careful, that is very contradictory. I am not trying to have an unloving heart, but people very much are born with a sinful nature. Have you ever seen anyone teaching their children to lie, cheat, or steal? Have you ever had to teach a child to disobey?

Absolutely of course we are born rotten in sin. Remember Psalm 51:5:

Quote:Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

This was David speaking... "a man after God's own heart"

We are simply sinners saved by the Grace of God justified only by faith.

Quote:I believe worship of God should be intelligent.

I must also humbly take issue with this statement. We are directly told by the Lord how we are to worship Him:

Quote:John
4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is not an intelligent worship. Catholics will tell us that they intelligently worship, and I believe them.

Thank God He is not limited by logic.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[George]

First of all, welcome to the boards. It is good to have you with us.

I must say I echo the statements Brother Jim made concerning your first post. It is contradictory in nature. If man is not born with a sin nature then can you explain the following to me?

(Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Rom 7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Rom 7:20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

If we are not born with a sin nature then where did this come from? Did Paul inherit it from someplace? Did he pick it up along the way somewhere? Did he learn it? According to what I read here it is an integral part of the human makeup.

In Christ,
George

[Diolectic]

Jim Wrote:If you believe this:

Quote:recieved the "original death" from Adam and therefore we are in weakness, natural, earthy, and have a living soul

but not this:

Quote:I believe that people are not born with a "sin nature"

Please be very careful, that is very contradictory. I am not trying to have an unloving heart, but people very much are born with a sinful nature. Have you ever seen anyone teaching their children to lie, cheat, or steal? Have you ever had to teach a child to disobey?

It is not contradictory because they are two difrent things.

Have you ever seen anyone teaching their children that lying, cheating, or stealing is wrong?
If we had a sinful "nature" one would not no that they are wrong.

Secondly, Haveing a sin nature concludes that we are preconemned.

Quote:Absolutely of course we are born rotten in sin. Remember Psalm 51:5:

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Quote:I must also humbly take issue with this statement. We are directly told by the Lord how we are to worship Him:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
This is an intelectual matter.

George Wrote:First of all, welcome to the boards. It is good to have you with us.

I must say I echo the statements Brother Jim made concerning your first post. It is contradictory in nature. If man is not born with a sin nature then can you explain the following to me?

(Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:1 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Rom 7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Rom 7:20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

If we are not born with a sin nature then where did this come from? Did Paul inherit it from someplace? Did he pick it up along the way somewhere? Did he learn it? According to what I read here it is an integral part of the human makeup.

In Christ,
George

What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;
Eze 18:4b the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: &
Deu 24:16, 2Ch 25:4
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Rom 7:23-24 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This is why Paul calls it the law of sin and death in Romans 8:2

If death is in our member that causes us to sin, then why do you insist that it is our nature.

Furthermore, how does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?

Thought we have this death that reigns in our flesh because of sin, we may have no condemnation of death when we don't walk according to the flesh, but after the Spirit because we are in Christ Jesus.

[Jim]

Quote:Quote:
Absolutely of course we are born rotten in sin. Remember Psalm 51:5:

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

You just proved my point with this scripture. God did make man upright(Adam), but we sought out many inventions (Adams fall).

What part are you not understanding? This is a simple biblical fundamental that my children even understand.

[Jim]

Quote:What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;

You really believe this, don't you?

When we say it is in out nature, we mean that this corrupted flesh by sin, will initally take the sin route. It is ravaged by sin, and obeys the law of sin, which has the consequence of death.

It is only by the grace of God we are saved and sin no more.

Is that not clear?

[Diolectic]

..

[Diolectic]

Jim Wrote:

Quote:Quote:
Absolutely of course we are born rotten in sin. Remember Psalm 51:5:

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

You just proved my point with this scripture. God did make man upright(Adam), but we sought out many inventions (Adams fall).

What part are you not understanding? This is a simple biblical fundamental that my children even understand.

It doesn't say, "that God hath made the man upright" as you make it out to mean.

The word is "man" as plural. Notice the word "they" in the next part.
But I guess not, you twisted the scripture to say that "we" sought out many inventions.

The KJV doesn't say it the way you just did, why did you go beyond what the Scripture sais?

Jim Wrote:

Quote:What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;

You really believe this, don't you?

When we say it is in our nature, we mean that this corrupted flesh by sin, will initally take the sin route. It is ravaged by sin, and obeys the law of sin, which has the consequence of death.

It is only by the grace of God we are saved and sin no more.

Is that not clear?

That is not a "nature" of sin.
That is only the nature of flesh.
If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.That can not be true.

Our flesh is sown in corruption, is sown in dishonour, sown in weakness, sown a natural body.
Nothing about a "sin nature"

It is only our nature to follow the effections of our will, which effects individual choices that we make.
The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than God, you cannot consistently do things that please Him. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

When one acknowlages Christ's death for his own, it is because the law did its work on him to recieve Christs's work on His cross.(Gal 3:24)

The man who does this will naturally love Christ for it and consequently his effections will be not toward his fleash which drove him to the place of condemnation, but toward Christ so that he will naturally follow God.

So, therefor, It all comes down to; where is your heart?
Not "sin nature" or saved nature
When we say it is in our nature, it is only our effections that are in the wrong place.

[Mongol Servant]

Diolectic (which means?)
Your quote: "Where is your heart?" Read Jeremiah 17:9

If there is "no sin nature", what did Paul mean in Romans 1:20-32? Notice especially verses 21 (foolish heart) 24 (lustful heart) 28 (reprobate mind) and 31 (without understanding).

When and where were you born-again?

[Diolectic]

Mongol Servant Wrote:Diolectic (which means?)
Your quote: "Where is your heart?" Read Jeremiah 17:9

If there is "no sin nature", what did Paul mean in Romans 1:20-32? Notice especially verses 21 (foolish heart) 24 (lustful heart) 28 (reprobate mind) and 31 (without understanding).

When and where were you born-again?

"Diolectic (which means?)" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dialectic

"Where is your heart"
Hebrews 8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:
Is your herat in His Word(Law) or of this world?
If, in/of this world, then it will decieve; however, if in His Word(Law) you will not be decieved.
Moreover, the christian is not to follow is heart, but what he knows.

That is why one need his mind renewed(Rom 12:2)

The very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

One repents because the truth of the Law convicted, and therefore turned to God for help to walk according to His Law, which He will put in the heart and mind for help.

What did the Law convict of?
Sin.
Our sins are the evidence that God holds against us.
He does'nt hold our nature against us.
If our sins haven't been washed away by His atoning blood, then the evidence against us will condemn us on the Day of Judgment.
Our nature is not washed by His atoning blood.

Moreover, how does God prove that evidence (of sin)?
He uses the Law.
What does the Law do?
The Law is used to show us that we do not uphold the law and we are incapable to do it consistantly on our own.
Furthermore, we need our mind to be changed from in order to accomplish the Law.(be ye transformed by the renewing of your mindRom 12:2)
The Law not only shows us that we sin, it also shows us why we need to helped to keep it most of all.

God doesn't only forgive your sins, which is the evidence HE uses against us; first He must change your mind by His truth.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

When God changes your mind by His truth, your heart is then changed, you are born again, a new creation, Born of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

If He doesn't, first, change your mind by His truth, you would come into His presence nor be able to follow him in a Christian walk which is after the spirit truth(John 14:17).

In short, our flesh, without fail causes each and every one of us to sin. A person is on their way to Hell because they walk according to the mindset of the fleah(Rom 8:6-7).

Sinful persons can only escape the lust of their flesh by turning their affections toward Christ, and thus escaping Hell through belief and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ because of His resurection.http://[/url][url][url][/url]

[Jim]

There is absolutely nothing logical about salvation.

Thanks be unto our Lord Jesus Christ for that.

I used to be stuck on logic, then I realized how absolutely arrogant that was.

I think when we reach eternity, we are going to have a wake-up call about our "logic".

"But Lord.....this logically just cannot happen......"

But then again, that is what it is going to take for some peoples' eyes to be opened.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[Diolectic]

Jim Wrote:There is absolutely nothing logical about salvation.

That is rediculous. Why would you follow any thing that don't make sense.

Salvation is perfectly logical.

Logic =
1. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: "We were able to follow his logic." (as the Law that convicts of sin)
2. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. (as the Scriptures)
3. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions:
4. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: "the irresistible logic of the facts." (as witnessing to people)

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (Paul reasoned many times with the Jews)
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.(discernment)
1Corinth 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand(comprehend) my knowledge in the mystery of Christ
Philip 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;(discernment)
Colos 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;(a mental putting together, that is, intelligence or (concretely) the intellect)


To add that it is the love of the truth that one needs is:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
&
2Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[Jim]

Logically explain God's grace and love to me "Diolectic"

Since you never answered my other question, I will highly doubt you wil answer this one either. Your type is a dime a dozen. yo uask all the questions in the world for which yo uyourself have no answer, but you absolutely refuse to answer anyone elses', or beat around the bush, not effectively giving an answer.

These conversations with you are eerily similar to the conversations we had with the catholics in the catholicism debate. Maybe there is a connection......

[Diolectic]

Jim Wrote:Logically explain God's grace and love to me "Diolectic"

Grace = Eph 2:8 By God's kindness He saved you because of your faith; and His grace is not because of anything that you have done: it is the free gift of God:

Love = Matthew 18:27 Then the Lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
&
Mark 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.

Jesus as compassion because of Hebrews 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with weakness.

Jim Wrote:Since you never answered my other question, I will highly doubt you wil answer this one either.

Jim Wrote:

Quote:What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;

You really believe this, don't you?

Yes

Jim Wrote:

Quote:Quote:
Absolutely of course we are born rotten in sin. Remember Psalm 51:5:

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

You just proved my point with this scripture. God did make man upright(Adam), but we sought out many inventions (Adams fall).

What part are you not understanding? This is a simple biblical fundamental that my children even understand.

I don't understand why any Christian would twist Scripture to prove their point.

Jim Wrote:Have you ever seen anyone teaching their children to lie, cheat, or steal? Have you ever had to teach a child to disobey?

No, however, have you ever seen anyone teaching their children that lying, cheating, or stealing is wrong?
If we had a sinful "nature" one would not no that they are wrong, because it is our nature to lie, cheat, or steal.

Jim Wrote:Your type is a dime a dozen. you ask all the questions in the world for which you yourself have no answer, but you absolutely refuse to answer anyone elses', or beat around the bush, not effectively giving an answer.

I have an answer, otherwise I would be stupid for thinking the way I do.
I don't "refuse to answer anyone elses"

George Wrote:(Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:1 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Rom 7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Rom 7:20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

1: If we are not born with a sin nature then where did this come from?
2: Did Paul inherit it from someplace?
3: Did he pick it up along the way somewhere? Did he learn it?

I replyed with the conclusion of the chapter of which George quoted:

Diolectic Wrote:What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;
Eze 18:4b the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: &
Deu 24:16, 2Ch 25:4
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Rom 7:23-24 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This is why Paul calls it the law of sin and death in Romans 8:2

If death is in our member that causes us to sin, then why do you insist that it is our nature.

Furthermore, how does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?

Thought we have this death that reigns in our flesh because of sin, we may have no condemnation of death when we don't walk according to the flesh, but after the Spirit because we are in Christ Jesus.

Jim Wrote:but you absolutely refuse to answer anyone elses', or beat around the bush, not effectively giving an answer.

If you reread my replies, they are replies to questions

Jim Wrote:beat around the bush, not effectively giving an answer.

I actualy try to effectively answer every question.
If I have missed any, please ask again & I will answer to the best of my knowlege.

Jim Wrote:These conversations with you are eerily similar to the conversations we had with the catholics in the catholicism debate. Maybe there is a connection......

No. catholicism only believes in the immaculate conception of mary; I know that all man kind is born with out the "original sin of Adam.

[Jim]

There is no reason to further our conversations. You are very confused about biblical fundamentals. Since the only fruit that has been produced between our conversations is rotten, let us continue our seperate ways.

One of the things you needed to do was to agree with our statement of faith. Since you do not, then your continuance to post here will be of no value. I suggest you find another place to post, as none of us agree with your "doctrine".

Love in Christ,

Jim