I think vs. 5 clearly states that "you" are the branches applying to believers specifically in the Church ("in Me" in vs. 2 is a term reserved for those in Christ which applies only to those in the Church being baptized into His body and thus being in Christ). I can only wonder why you are asking (motives???).

I think you fit in the Covenant view b/c I don't think you believe that the Church is a distinct program starting at Acts 2 and ending at the Rapture. I would love to be wrong on this one though.

The option three are the "in-between" views like Progressive Dispensationalism. If Dispensationalism is right (which it is of course ) then why seek an option three? Curious.

This post was last modified: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:18 PM by Greektim.

"Motives, what motives?" he said as he rubbed his little paws together with glee.

For you church-supremacists out there When are the bodies of the OT saints (Jew and non-Jew) "raptured"?

And (question #2) when do the "pre-church era" saints become "in Christ"?

Honestly, guys, I'm asking these questions as one who is seeking for the pieces to the puzzle, not as a skeptic. I've always said that the pre-trib doctrine would be great if I were certain that it was true. The whole dispensation discussion is vague to me. My tendency to be satirical is getting the best of me at the moment, but I am appreciative of your answers. I'm glad that there is somebody out there that has it all figgered out!

As I understand it, the "pre church saints" are saved in the same way as we are, by faith in Christ. They looked forward to his day and believed.

I will answer everything as best as I can. Here goes...

If you understand what the rapture refers to, then you will know that it means the resurrection of the dead Church saints AND the translation of the living Church saints (1 Thess. 4:16-17 & 1 Cor. 15:51-53). Since the OT saints are already dead, then there is no rapture for them just resurrection. We see in Dan. 12:1-2 (also cf. Isa. 26:19) that the resurrection of the OT saints takes place at the 2nd Coming. We also see in Rev. 20:4 that the dead Trib saints will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming. Now if there were a rapture at the end of the Trib., then all the saints alive at the end of the Trib would be translated and given a glorified body. But that wouldn’t make sense because then everyone entering the Millennial Kingdom would be glorified and there would be no procreation and thus no final uprising of Satan after the MK.

Therefore the OT saints are not raptured. But they are resurrected at the 2nd Coming. All those living saints at the end of the Trib enter the MK to repopulate the earth (Matt. 25). Even though Satan is bound for the MK, the living saints still take in their sin natures and pass it on to their progeny. Thus you have the explanation of the final revolt of Satan at the end of the MK (cf. Rev. 20:7-9).

We have to first understand that the phrase “in Christ” refers to those baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ – the Church (cf. 1 Cor. 12:13, 27, Col. 1:18, & 24). Also it is only used in the NT in reference to those Church saints as well. The fact is, Spirit baptism never took place in the OT or the life of Christ and it is never said to take place after the Church age. Thus, OT saints, while saved, are not ever going to be “in Christ.” Remember, Spirit baptism is a result of salvation in this dispensation and not a cause. It is a benefit to the saints of this age, but it is restricted only to this age. All Spirit baptism does is place the believer into the body of Christ the Church (cf. verses above).

Just to clarify here, OT saints are saved in the same way – by grace through faith. But the content of their faith was not the same. Gen. 15:6 (also see all the NT quotes of this passage in Rom. 4, Gal. 3, & James 2) says that Abraham believe in God not in Christ or the Messiah. The context explains that the content of his faith was centered around Abraham believing in God’s fulfilling His promise to Abraham especially giving Him an offspring from Sarah. It is very likely that the OT saints, while knew something of a kinsman redeemer and the coming Messiah, did not know the content of the Gospel which we know – i.e. the death (by crucifixion since it had not been invented at that time), burial, and resurrection of Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 15:1-4). Therefore, salvation is always by grace through faith, but the content of that faith is determined by the amount of revelation that God had given up to that time.

GreekTim expounded:

Please further explain Ephesians 1:10 based on the above statement.

Eph. 1:10 does not refer to people or saints specifically but to "all things." This dispensation referred to is the MK when all things are brought under subjection to and by (a possible meaning for the presposition) Christ.

Something else, the phrase is not exactly the same. The "in Christ" here is not used in other places to refer to the "in Christ" of the Church. THis phrase is unique and used the same way in vss. 12, 20, & 3:6; none of which refers to saints being positionally "in Christ."

I had something else, but my head is hurting right now. If I think of something else, I will let you know.

I cannot agree that they are not in Christ, for there is salvation in no other.

The phrase "in Christ" is not a term of salvation (as is thrown around so much) but a term of the Church just like Bride of Christ or Body of Christ (which "in Christ" refers to). There is salvation in no one else but Christ. But not all will be "in Christ." This is the major dispute between Covenant & Dispesational theology. Covenant theology holds that everything revovles around the covenant of grace. So any Church truth like Spirit baptism, Bride of Christ, or "in Christ" is applied to all saints of all time because they hold that all people are under the one covenant of grace.

Again, your logic would have to lead you to say that Abraham either was not saved or that he knew of and believed in Jesus Christ specifically. But God had not revealed that truth at that point in time in history. Gen. 15:6 also doesn't say that Abraham believed in Christ but simply God. His belief was based on the revelation given up to that time.

The phrase "in Messiah" is not seen in the OT either. That alone would argue against OT saints being "in Christ." In fact, you really only see that phrase in Church epistles. That tells me it was reserved for one dispensation only - the Church.

I told you I was a hard-core Dispensationalist.

Greektim wrote:

I actually agree with this. Some quick examples. Tribulation Saints listed in revelation, Different crowns given to christians, the apostles, etc.

There are a few examples, just in heaven I am referring to, where entities are fulfilling different "jobs" if I may. So GT is right, there are going to be distinctions in heaven, but not to the extent of who is "better" or "worse".

Love in Christ,

Jim

Well said, Jim. Hebrews 12:22-24 seals the deal for me:

There is a distinction made especially to the "general assembly" (probably OT saints) and the "Church of the first born."

Did Moses know Christ?

Moses already mentioned.

Abraham "Rejoiced to see my day."

Job, "I know that my redeemer liveth.


Yes, I think they knew Jesus.

"Moses renamed Hosea, the son of Nun, Jesus the son of Nun.", Eusebius