Download the international murder rate comparison to countries who have banned vs allowed gun laws. You do the math.

If the totality of England truly does not want guns, then they are welcome to have their death wish. Try not forget that we do not live in a civilized world, Criminals, shockingly enough, really don't follow anyones laws. Amazing isn't it?

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce....serRev.pdf

Ebenezer,
Better back up and try this: THINK - the Bible says that if you don't provide for your family (i.e. - self/home defense) you have denied the faith, and are worse than an infidel - I Timothy 5:8

A firearm is only a tool - sad that most "Christians" can't think, without a remote in their hand. I wonder what the outcome of the Columbine catastrophe would have been, if those two kids had confronted an ARMED teacher with a 9mm, who knew how to use it? I doubt they would even have walked into the place. Look at England and Japan's capital crime rates, after gun control - THRU THE ROOF. At the same time, look at Switzerland and Israel - virtually nil - why? Because they can have fully automatic weapons - no criminal in the world would DARE enter someone's home with THAT kind of protection. The supreme court said years ago, that criminals DON'T have to register their weapons - only "law-abiding" citizens follow that madness. You should get a real grip on the news, and let all the "think-tanks" and public opinion surveys go where they belong - in the trash! When guns are outlawed, I'll become an outlaw!

MS,

There are limits as to what we can do in the care for our families. Do you carry firearms in your location? And if you use them to kill an attacker, how would this affect your ministry?

Where did Jesus say, "Kill your enemies?"

No. We can trust our God to provide our basic needs.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Where did "those two kids" get there arms from? Were they the ones who stole them from their parents?

The reason our crime rates are through the roof is not because we don't carry guns, it is because we are no longer allowed to disciple children in our schools, and barely at home. The children are growing up wild. I think it was John lennon and Yoko One who had a nanny for a child. The nanny was not allowed to correct the child in any way.

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

This post was last modified: Fri Jul 04, 2008 02:53 PM by Davo.

Ebenezer:

No, there are NO limits to what I can do for my family. Do I carry firearms in my location? Absolutely!!! Does the pastor give me permission to carry a firearm on the church premesis? Yes he does! And the final liberal question, If I use a firearm to kill an attacker, how would this affect my ministry?, 1) I will rejoice in the Lord that He has given me the ability to defend myself regardless of left-wing liberals saying I don't have that right, and 2) It would strengthen my ministry greatly that I remained a man of my word.

Incidentally, I have zero respect or regard for any man not willing to defend His family, as God made us to be able to, and have the responsibility to do so. As a matter of fact I feel it is a sin for any man to lead his family anywhere where there could be a possibility of danger without taking any proper precaution as how he would be able to protect them, which is just about everywhere you go today.

I also have the pleasure and honor of being the man to whom everyone in my church goes to teach the women how to use a firearm and help them to obtain a concealed weapons permit (yes most of them in my church have expressed a desire to do this).

Davo:

You are 100% correct! That is exactly the problem. So the question is, how do we address it? When you have criminals walking the streets because of their upbringing, or lack thereof, willing to murder us at a glance, what are we supposed to do about it? The only thing we can do, arm ourselves. There is no other alternative.



For anyone who has a problem taking someone elses life, then fine, be a victim, that is your business, just don't tell me how to run my family or protect myself. I am not a mouse, I am a man.

That brings up another issue, where I firmly believe a lot of christians are sinning because of their misinterpretation of "turning the cheek" and it's many counterparts. It is a lie out of the pits of Hell to use that to walk around saying I don't have the responsibility to safeguard myself or guard my family because the Lord will. While there is a modicum of truth to it, God won't feed your mouth with food, He expects you to do that for yourself. God won't do for you what you can do for yourself.

It is too bad we can't "wish away" all the criminals, so we can justifiably ban guns, isn't it? But even if there were no criminals,I would still own and carry a gun.

Love in Christ,

Jim

This post was last modified: Sat Jul 05, 2008 01:02 PM by Jim.

Sorry Jim, I thought you were a Christian.

What we need is less guns on the street, not more.

My word we are getting quite carried away here! What on earth does my owning firearms have to do with my Christianity? Nothing! this is a rather harsh thing to say Brother David.

In this country we believe that we are endowed with certain God-given rights. They are spelled out in the Constitution of the United States of America. Ownership of firearms is one of the things spelled out in that very same Constitution.

How would we have gotten out from under the oppression of the British Crown some 232 years ago if we were not permitted to own firearms? How would we have gotten through the Revolutionary War if we were not permitted to own firearms? In both cases as well as others, many of the men fighting were using their own personal firearms to protect our country.

We also believe these firearms to be very important in personal wars such as home invasions and the like. Recently in our community we had three men try to invade a home, to what end I do not know, but they were accosted by the homeowner who happened to own a handgun. Needless to say they were apprehended without loss of life or bloodshed.

I only wish that it were easier in California to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. However it is very difficult with the final decision left up to the local Police Chief. I can carry firearms in my vehicle but they must be kept in a locked case of some kind and the ammunition cannot be in the same place. If I carry a handgun in my pickup truck the ammunition must be in the back of the truck or vice-versa. That does not help me much if I am attacked by a person who wants to hijack my vehicle of if I happen to see a crime taking place in which the presence of a firearm would be very beneficial in preventing that crime.

In California if someone attempts to break into my home I can legally shoot them if I call out that I am armed and afraid for my life. I only wish that I would have been home the time the guy broke into my home while I was at work. He stole some cash and messed up windows and doors but if I would have been here I would have been able to take one of my handguns, give the required warning and when the guy came in I would have shot him; no questions asked.

You see, I was trained in security by the United States Marine Corps (Semper Fidelis brother Jim) when I was involved in highly classified work during the Viet Nam War. I was trained to shot a guy in the head and if by some chance he happened to die them we would question him. The same holds true for my home.

The only people who register guns and follow the rules here are law-abiding citizens. The bad guys carry whatever they want to without any regard to the law. How am I to combat that? Do I say, Mr. bad Guy, please don't break into my home as he points a 9mm at me? I don't think so! If someone breaks into my home again and I am here he will get shot and most likely from a Ruger BalckHawk 357 Magnum. That will leave quite a hole! Now if I want to be nice to the guy I will only use a Colt 38 Police Positive. But then that would not make quite a hole and would leave him available for questioning.

Let me tell you that the guy who broke into my home has been identified and he has been tied to at least 8 residential burglaries. How is he to be stopped if the police cannot find him and no one had a weapon to deter him? And I mean deter him in the most aggressive way that can be done.

In Christ,
George

Brother George, Davo has decided to take what I said, twist it, taking it out of context, and try to redirect the argument.

He is not going to answer our questions, or respond to our facts, because he is wrong and he knows he is wrong. A lot of times, people will redirect the conversation because of this.

I will renege on what I said earlier. If you can get guns to truthfully disappear off the streets Davo, then I will personally give up all of my guns. Enjoy your new job.

This post was last modified: Sat Jul 05, 2008 03:12 PM by Jim.

Jim I apologize.

George, I am sorry to say this but I am glad that I don't have to live in a country like that. I don't have a gun, or a knife. I do have, I think

We do not have any weapons, but sleep well at night. I do have a WW1 wooden special's truncheon, but if somebody broke into our house, and I clubbed him to death with it, I would have to [/i]prove that I had used [i]Reasonable Force, or I would be on a murder charge. By Reasonable Force, I understand it to mean that the intruder would have to be actually attacking me.

Here are a couple of bible verses for you:


Mt 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Lu 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

This post was last modified: Sat Jul 05, 2008 04:32 PM by Davo.

So do fawns, right before they are a wolves next meal. Why do you think they are a predators favorite meal? How many wolves have you seen stalking a bear cub? Not many, because they are afraid of mama...

When the wolf comes out, I'll be as ready to defend myself and my family as that mama bear would.

I am a little afraid as to what reasoning you have for your use of those verses of scripture. I am very apprehensive to use scripture for my own personal use to defend my opinion in an argument.

In response to it, I say this:

I pray that these verses arent manipulated in meaning to mean that we are not to defend ourselves. On the contrary, it is quite clear that God allows all things to happen to us regardless of our status as christians. To think we are free from the allowance of even horrible things and persecution is complete denial of scripture. Things can and will happen to us because of the sin nature of the world.

You are also welcome to not want to live here, but I am of the opinion that we live in the greatest nation on earth, and I wouldn't change living here for the world. That is slowly changing because of the rampant sin, but I am still proud of my country. We have more freedom and rights than any other country on the face of the earth. It is very unfortunate that the ungodly are taking it for granted and bringing us under an authoritarian rule, but here I stand, God bless America!

This post was last modified: Sun Jul 06, 2008 01:12 PM by Jim.

Davo,
In the "prophetic" words of Ted Nugent (an NRA director, by the way), "In order for you to live, something has to DIE!"

I have never heard of Ted Nugent, and I have no idea what the NRA is.

The NRA (National Rifle Association) is, here in America, the most powerful gun-rights lobbyist group. I do not completely agree with a lot of their policies, but they do have a major hand in what the gun-laws are.

Ted Nugent is most know for his rock style anthems of the 1980's. His arguable most popular hit-song being "cat-scratch fever".

While I enjoy Ted Nugent's view on gun-rights and hunting, I do not consider him a godly resource in any other matter, and certainly do not listen to his music. But MS's reason for quoting him is because of his popularity in the public worldy sector and his influence there on gun rights.

Ted Nugent, Karl Malone, Chuck Norris, and several other "high-profile celebrities" have "seen the light" on the rights of citizens to have unrestricted self-defense capabilities. As Bible-believing Christians, living in the land of the free, we often read of the correct, moral, and constitutional beliefs of numerous individuals thrown into the limelight. Several U.S. Presidents, though lost, are often quoted by Christians.

Again, my point was to get people to THINK - Nugent's quote is rather profound - "In order for you to live, something has to die."

And this quote is 100% correct brother. Freedom ALWAYS has a price.

This post was last modified: Sun Jul 20, 2008 09:16 PM by Jim.