Inverted Cross twisted carried by the Pontiff This sinister symbol was created by Satanists in the Sixth Century as a caricature of the Traditional Crucifix

Inverted Cross behind the head of the seated Pontiff.
This is a sign of mockery of the Christian cross and Christ's death!

The queen of heaven ...Mary? Read Jeremiah 7:18

The Halo around Mary.... (especially her head).
The is an idolatrous practice of the Catholics which symbolizes deity (that she is equal with God). Read Isaiah 42:8

Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 gives us a clear indication of the virgin, but also tells us about Immanuel gr. Emmanuel "God with us" The emphsis should be on Christ Jesus not Mary!

Prayer made before statues of past saints Exodus 20:4Exodus 20:5 We are told by the word of God in plain wording not to pray (worship) before any symbol!

Ligthing of candlesThe burning of candles has it's roots in fire worship, candles were burnt to ward off witches, and spirits.


This is just a few of the troubling satanic sysmbols in Catholicism. No scripture reference allows any of this to be used in the true Church!



Jim Norman

The main point here is they stand on symbolism without substance.
They no longer care about what the Word of God plainly tells us, but rather the tradition of men.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Tradition is traditionally wrong!!


Jim Norman

Haloes around saints etc, are identifying them with the sun-god, as in Egyptian mythology. I was once in a Catholic church, in France, and the main thing I noticed was the number os sun images in the decorations.

The issues of traditions is fascinating to me. I don't believe the Bible teaches that traditions are wrong per se -- each culture has its traditions as does each family (whether they admit it or not). I believe that when Christ addressed traditions with the Pharisees, he was addressing the fact that they were making their traditions MORE important than the law of God and the spirit of the law. The Pharisees (like so many Christians today) had the good intention of putting fences around the law so that the people were more likely to obey God and the people would not be punished by Roman rule anymore. But the fences became more important than the field they were protecting. I don't have problem with a candle being lit in a church per se (there are candlesticks in Revelations by the way) and before electricity, candles would sure help! I definitely have a problem with pictures of saints, etc. because more likley than not, the pictures have become the object of worship rather than God.

As an aside, let me give an example of balancing "tradition" and the spirit of the law (and I'd be interested in your reaction)... I don't believe we should say for example that "You can't wear shorts to church" but we should teach people to recognize that when they enter the church, they are coming before the presence of God and that they should dress as it is becoming to worship -- and in that light, in our culture, I happen to believe that means wearing something "decent".

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Considering these verses, WHEN are you NOT in the presence of God?

A believer ALWAYS has an AUDIENCE of 3!

In the service of the King,
Craig

Craig,
Are you saying that being before God in church has no "special" significance? Of course I'm always in the presence of God but Moses had to take his sandals off when he was on holy ground -- not just any ground. God is omnipresent and yet there is clear teaching in the Bible of special times/places when God's presence is particularly made manifest.

Cedartree, I must admit that when I saw your quote:

I had the same thought as Craig voiced.

We as Christians should have a permanent residence of a fear of His Godhead and majesty within ourselves. This only comes via the work of the Holy Spirit.

While we have a church we gather together to worship in, it is not "the church". Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"

I think what Craig is trying to iterate here, and I will agree with it's importance, is that we ought not to wait for church to be a "special significance" to us. If it us, then we are probably not living in the fear of the Lord. This fruit, (only Sunday and church services being special), is described in James 1:22-24

1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1:23
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


We should not wait until Sunday to worship the Lord, and then go our separate ways during the week. We should be just as sanctified during the week, as when we step into church on Sunday. We should not ever "feel" that we are coming into the presence of the Lord on this earth to any specific location(I speak of our daily walk with Christ).

Those times and places coordinated properly within their dispensation. This is not those times. As the Holy Spirit resides within us, we do not have to have the Lord "appear" to us to communicate with us.

Your using Moses standing on Holy Ground, could also have it reversed and the question asked, "Why didnt the Holy Spirit just talk to Him without having to appear as a burning bush? The answer to that question could easily be answered with, "The Holy Spirit did not reside within us during that dispensation"

Just my thoughts,

Love in Christ,

Jim

Thanks for your thoughtful response -- I appreciate the interaction.
I would say that (1) you are assuming that there are "dispensations" -- while God does deal with mankind in different ways throughout history (Paul speaks of two covenants in Hebrews of course) and Christ came in the fulness of time, I do not subscribe to the view of dispensations in general. Christ came to fulfil the law, i.e., he perfected what the OT could not perfect, but he did not do away with it, (2) God is immutable... to the degree he could manifest himself in special ways in the OT, he does the same in the NT (of course, without an audible voice since that is not needed anymore as we now have the perfect logos or Christ and we have the complete canon), (3) "Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name..." means nothing if it doesn't mean that Christ attends, in a special way, the gathering of his people, and (4) we worship in a church primarily b/c the church started via the meeting of Christian Jews in synagogues which was itself a poor substitute for the temple where God dwelt among the people. Yes, I agree, we in a sense "bring the presence of God" to the church because He is living in us but I firmly believe there is a unique and special presence of God when his people gather to worship.

Not really assuming, but rather asserting. If you look at Covenant theology vs. Dispensationalism, you must find both to have some merit. I firmly believe in dispensationalism, to not would feel that there would be no rapture, and men could be apostles today.

I don't feel that God's immutability has anything to do with His revealing His presence to us. In contrast to our earthly view of His immutability would be His sovereign will. Not to the extent of God contradicting His word, but His divine right to do as He chooses, with no presumption by us. If we were to compare God's immutability to His say, covenant of salvation from OT to NT, what would we then say? That God does change? God forbid.

First, look at the word "Wherever". This alone should alert us to the fact that no building has any special significance except in our own minds. The building itself was abolished at the finishing of the first covenant. In addition, We only worship in a church because it is the most convenient way for gatherers to come together for a common cause and purpose without any way of interference involved in minds. As you can remember, the first Christians, yes, that included the Jews, gathered together in houses and other locations for fear of persecution. Since the inception of the church, there has been many, many churches gathering together in houses and other locations. Unless you consider Catholic Churches where there is probably more money spent on the building than on missionary work, but that is beside the point.

I am not sure what you are saying here, it seems you are supporting the fact that the building itself is not important. Yet I do not believe "in a sense" that we are bringing in the presence of God, you yourself already quoted, Matt. 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Christ never established a building. On the contrary, the "Rock" he refers to in Matt. 16:18. refers to Himself, I am sure you already know that.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Where ONE BELIEVER is,

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


THERE HE IS!!!

THAT CONTEXT is in reference to Church discipline!!


Buildings,

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

just became meaningless.

Of course IDOLATORS love their buildings, as you see when catholics pass by their buildings and 'cross' themselves.

But BELIEVERS are the temple!!

Buildings, building programs, and the resultant COLLECTIONS to maintain them are an ALBATROSS around the neck of the SPIRITUALLY DEAD churches in much of the western world.

The LIVING churches in much of the rest of the world are, of course, spread and purified by PERSECUTION, as seen in our Biblical EXAMPLE, where NO building program is EVER seen!

In service of the King,
Craig

Craig, by your words, I am not sure of what you are saying here. It seems like I am seeing two extreme opposing view of a like subject.

What I am disagreeing with is a unbalanced view of the importance of a physical building in which to worship. Now the same can be said of an opposing view seemingly completely opposed to the even having a building in which to worship which, and forgive me, which seems to be the stance you are taking? Maybe I am wrong, it is just seems the words you are using support this?

These are fairly harsh words my friend. I again will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that your stress is upon those churches that put an irrational concentration upon building at the behest of other more spiritually important things? I completely agree with building programs as long as they are within God's will. How else are we to have locations at which to gather many people?

You also said:

How does this portion of scripture even hint at church discipline? Again, maybe I am misinterpreting you.

Love in Christ,

Jim

The common ERRORS are the point

Where ONE BELIEVER is, there THE TRINITY is, THAT is the FACT.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,



This is the context of "where 2 or 3 are gathered".

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


Paul NEVER complained of persecution, NOR did he propose a BUILDING program!

Psa 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

AMERICANIANITY is largely to blame for the DEAD state of the Churches today!

Today we have 'FREEDOM' from persecution, and we have buildings, building programs, and a DEAD church!!

PERSECUTION PURIFIES, and SPREADS the Church of Jesus Christ!!

A nickel spent on a building is a wasted nickel, IF we follow the BIBLICAL example!

Which we DON'T!

If we met in houses PEOPLE would be forced to WORK, cuz they run out of room!!

But today we have BIG BUILDINGS, and people who sit in a PEW for 50 years and do NOTHING, cept' pay for the STUPID building, AND THEN A BIGGER BUILDING!!

IT IS LARGELY A DEAD CHURCH, but 'no persecution'

Even the IFB'S today make NO demands on folks. (Cept' ta show up, and pay for the BUILDING)

What demands?

They could START with this command!!

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

That translates to 'imitate' Paul, as he 'imitates' Christ.

Do YOU know ONE person who imitates Paul?

Not LIKELY!

BUT, you say, what about the Pastors' salary?

IF the Pastor was 'imitating' Paul, he would accept NO salary, Paul didn't!

But WHAT Pastor imitates Paul?

starting to GET IT yet?

In the service of the King,
Craig

Bible Believer, First, I believe you can still make your point WITHOUT TYPING IN ALL CAPS AND IN RED FONT

Please read the posting etiquette here:
http://www.fundamentalpreaching.com/foru....php?t=181

OK, now on to your content. I am quite at a loss here, are you considering the topic at hand, it has deviated from the original subject as most forums tend to do, being guilty myself.

I dont think anyone here has asserted that the body is in fact not the temple of the Holy Spirit.

The context to which you are referring to support your claim that Jesus is in the midst of them is only referring to church discipline, is not enough. I believe a good definition of the word "for" at the beginning of verse 20 is "because". The reason this verse is here is to remind us of the reason why two or three witnesses are needed, not to limit the lord's presence to only church disciplinary actions, but that we need to be reminded that in every instance, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." We need to be very careful about causing scripture to be limited to its context only. On the same token, we need to be careful not to take scripture out of context. 1 COr. 14:40
Let all things be done decently and in order.

Yet all of his epistles were generally accepted to be written to large churches in cities. Of course the letters refer to the christians gathered there, but where did they gather? Why did not Paul reprimand them for gathering in those churches?

I would have more thought the reason to be self-indulgence and complacency on the part of the universal church, not just America. Will not all countries be judged for the very same reason? Why limit it to just America and it's ways? I am certainly not arguing that America will not have a lot to pay for, but if we are to make an assertion, then let's be fair about it.

This is a very dangerous statement. Only Christ purifies, presecution can cause bitterness and resentment in a christian just as quickly, depending on the christian to whom it is meted.

Can you please give the example? The only example I see in the bible is the universal church gathering in local congregations (i.e. church buildings) for the common cause of worship of Jesus Christ.

And lastly:

So if I am to interpret you correctly here is your stance:

1) You believe buildings to gather together in(church buildings) is biblically incorrect

and

2) You believe persecution of christians to be a good thing


Am I right? If not, this seems to be the stance you are taking by your words.

I have seen many pastors accept a salary, I have seen many who do not. Whether the pastor accepts a "salary" or not is of no consequence if he obeying the Lord. Why would the apostles need a treasurer(Judas Iscariot) if they were not receiving money? They still needed to eat, and they still needed clothes, etc. And of course this is a moot argument because we are not apostles, nor can we be. The Word of God has gone to the corners of the earth (Rom. 10:18 ) Pastors now tend to the local flock. Everyone has different responsibilites, and we will answer for those when we stand at the Judgment Seat.


I am not disagreeing that there is an irrational view of focusing on building programs, it is sad indeed that more money is spent on buildings than true missionary work and evangelism. Shame on those churches that do so. However, I am just addressing your particular choice of words in defending your position.

Yeah, I think I am getting it.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Paul would probably never type in all caps... Also, show me where Paul opposed a building set apart for the use of defending the Scripture and distributing the Gospel.

Buildings can be used badly, but they cannot be inherently evil.

Not Americanianity (did you make up that word yourself?) but carnality, the age old enemy of the church, is to blame for deadness.

Have you been to every church in America? Well, then you cannot make this definative statement.

No, the Word of God purifies the saints, and the faithful proclamation of the Gospel spreads the message of salvation.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Persecution may get our attention, but it will not purify.

If we met in people's homes it would make little difference. Corinth most likely met in a large home, but even there we find deadness and carnality.

Act 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

When Paul could not teach in the synagogue he went to another building that was fit for purpose, in this case a school, not a home.

Hm, never heard me preach... I make demands...

Do you? If not, get the beam out...

Paul held himself up as a unique example of one who did not live off the Gospel but his teaching plainly states: 1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Yes, you have zeal but I would humbly suggest it is misdirected. [/quote]

Face it, go back not too long ago and you will see vast halls filled with sincere listeners recieving 100% Bible-based, soul-stirring, life-changing, God-honouring, Christ-exalting preaching!

From those halls saints went out and proclaimed the Gospel further and many were saved and many called into the ministry.

I dare say your own salvation can be traced back to some place of worship (i.e. a building)

I am not defending buildings for buildings sakes, but I am defending the proper use of whatever tools the Lord has deemed proper for us to use for His glory.

All I can say is Wow -- this is all started with a discussion on tradition, not church buildings!

I don't have time to address every point since some of us have to work .

As for the context of "2 or 3 gathered" which is the context of church discipline, that's the point... the gathering and the presence of God are in the context of the church. Of course Christ is with every believer and I believe a church that meets in a home in China is just as valid as a large gathering in a 'fancy' building in America. The building is just a matter of culture primarily and facilitates large groups generally speaking (many churches start in house meetings and then eventually grow to the point of needing a separate building and if the members want to combine their funds and instead of buying larger homes, buy ONE large building, that seems like a WISER use of money to me). I wasn't implying that God ONLY attends a gathering or ONLY attends a physical building but rather that it appears to me that there is evidence of God's special pleasure in the gathering of His people on the Lord's day to worship him (in whatever building or even with no building!).

I agree with mnwickens with regard to the fact that a building in and of itself can be used for good or for bad. Again, Paul often visited synagogues to do his church planting and church history shows us that there were special gathering places (whether synagogues, homes, or catacombs) for early believers. The concern of some here that church buildings are in themselves somehow evil is akin to the gnostic/dualistic view that spirit is good and the physical world is bad. God created man as a soul AND a body and declared it good and similarly the physical building is not evil inherently. With all due respect, you are playing semantics since your house then becomes the church and those advocating leaving the 'dead' church are just forming their own virtual church. Come to my church and you'll see it's not dead -- we're evangelizing, preaching, singing, serving one another in the spirit of the New Testament (not perfectly of course!).

The comment re: a pastor's salary flies in the face of I Tim. 5: 17-18 "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” "

The church was planted in the context of Israel and it's mode of worship which is why Christ cleared out the Temple and called it his father's house -- he didn't tell people to go home and worship God there (I take a covenantal view). God grants us the freedom to build or not build churchs... He does not grant us the freedom to treat the time of worship lightly.