I think his period for the Ottoman Empire is wrong. Greece only gained her independence from the Turks in 1829 following their war of independence. During the 19th century, Russia and Britain had been pushing the Turks back from their overseas possessions During the 19th century, but their empire did not entirely end till Allenby marched into Jerusalem in 1917. This makes their empire 597 years.

The Babylonian empire was less than 100 years. (The first of the empires in Dan.2)

The Papal Empire lasted 1260 years 610-1870

This post was last modified: Thu Oct 01, 2009 07:09 PM by Davo.

I'm not sure about the period given for the British Empire, either: 1700-1950.
Great Britain began its overseas expansion late in the 1500s during the time of Elizabeth I, it reached its peak in 1919 at the end of WW1, and then it gradually dwindled away after WW2. The handover of Hong Kong to China in 1997 is generally considered to be the final end of the British Empire.

Yes I can remember goods imported from Hong Kong saying "Empire Made"

Authority in our country, comes from THE PEOPLE:

Here's a very interesting article from a former INS agent regarding the lawful use of "authority":

By Michael Cutler
October 10, 2009
NewsWithViews.com

A news article was published in the Washington Times on Monday, October 5, 2009 and should be of tremendous concern to all Americans. The title "Criminalizing Everyone" sums it up concisely.

You may wonder if this article has a nexus with the subject I write about nearly exclusively; immigration. In point of fact there is a nexus but we will get to that momentarily. First I would like to capsulize the facts illuminated by this article.

According to the report by its author, Brian W. Walsh, American citizens are being prosecuted in apparently increasing numbers, for what would appear to be minor infractions of law that have no real impact on our nation or our citizens.

The first example provided in the article detailed how an elderly couple who had lived for a long time in their home in Spring, Texas found themselves on the wrong side of the law when federal agents executed a search warrant at their home. The couple, Kathy and George Norris were apparently shocked when the agents entered their home to execute the search warrant concerning violations of laws that these agents were responsible for enforcing. The agents in this case, were from the Fish and Wildlife Service.

Mr. Norris who was at the time of this event, 66 years old, was the subject of an investigation into his cultivation, importation and selling of orchids. According to the news article, his crime involved the companies from which he ordered his orchids not properly completing paperwork in conjunction with the importation of the orchids which he was apparently, legally entitled to import!

He was sentenced to serve two nearly two years in prison and was given a period of supervision after his release from a federal jail. Consider this quote from the article: "The Norrises' nightmare began with the search in October 2003. It didn't end until Mr. Norris was released from federal supervision in December 2008. His wife testified, however, that even after he came home, the man she had married was still gone. He was by then 71 years old. Unsurprisingly, serving two years as a federal convict - in addition to the years it took to defend unsuccessfully against the charges - had taken a severe toll on him mentally, emotionally and physically."

Next I would like you to consider another example brought to light in the news report below: "Krister Evertson, another victim of overcriminalization, told Congress, "What I have experienced in these past years is something that should scare you and all Americans." He's right. Evertson, a small-time entrepreneur and inventor, faced two separate federal prosecutions stemming from his work trying to develop clean-energy fuel cells.

"The feds prosecuted Mr. Evertson the first time for failing to put a federally mandated sticker on an otherwise lawful UPS package in which he shipped some of his supplies. A jury acquitted him, so the feds brought new charges. This time they claimed he technically had "abandoned" his fuel-cell materials - something he had no intention of doing - while defending himself against the first charges. Mr. Evertson, too, spent almost two years in federal prison."

I want you to remember that I was a federal agent for roughly 3 decades. While I may not have agreed with every single component of the laws I enforced at the former INS, my sense was that what we did served an important purpose- the INS sought to remove illegal aliens whose presence in our country had a negative impact on our nation and our citizens.

What is amazing to me is that even as ever more stringent laws are being enacted that encroach on our expectations of privacy and liberty all too many of our nation's leaders are unwilling to enforce the immigration laws that are intended to protect our nation and our citizens.

Mr. Norris is an elderly American citizen whose actions were not, of themselves, illegal. His home-based business apparently harmed no one. Furthermore he is not only elderly but of failing health- according to the article he suffers from diabetes and Parkinson's Disease. What was accomplished by punishing this man and consequently his wife?

With all of the ranting about how the arrest of illegal aliens divide families- an utterly fatuous argument- I wonder if Ms Pelosi who has publicly declared the arrest of illegal aliens to be "Un-American" I wonder when she will weigh in on this case. I also wonder if she will weigh in on the second case noted in the article where an Krister Evertson, an inventor ran afoul of the law when, according to the news article, his crime was to fail to place a sticker on a UPS package!

I recall a comedian doing a funny routine about how he demonstrated his courage by removing all of those "Do Not Remove" tags that come attached to bedding and furniture! Those tags were not supposed to be removed by the merchants who sold those items but, given this article, perhaps the day will soon arrive when "tag inspectors" will barge into people's homes to check for those tags and cart anyone who removed them, off to jail!

So much for "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness!

Criminal justice must, first and foremost, be just! That means that the punishment must fit the crime!

When millions of illegal aliens enter our country in violation of law and in so doing impact everything from national security and criminal justice to the economy, the environment, health care and education and no less than an authority than the President of the United States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the Chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration (Chuck Schumer) can once again attempt to ram "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" down our throats because such lunacy is commensurate with their political agendas, then the time has come for the citizens of this nation to make their voices heard!

As many of you know, I lost my parents to cancer when I was a college student, but their advice and words of wisdom resonate in my mind (and in my heart) daily!

I recall my dad telling me that I would teach the people I encountered how they should treat me by making it clear to all what I was willing to accept! This is advice I would recommend to all of you!

If you find yourself to be in agreement with this commentary, I ask that you forward to as many of your friends and family members as possible and encourage them to do the same.

In less than two years each and every member of the House of Representatives is up for reelection. In less than two years more than one third of the members of the United States Senate will have to face their constituents. They need to be reminded that they work for us, We the People!

However, the practice of good citizenship does not end in the voting booth, it only begins there. The large scale apathy demonstrated by citizens of this nation has emboldened elected representatives to all but ignore the needs of the average American citizen in a quest for massive campaign funds and the promises of votes to be ostensibly delivered by special interest groups. There is much that we cannot do but there is one thing that We the People absolutely must do- we must stop sitting on the sidelines!

The collective failure of We the People to get involved in make our concerns known to our politicians have nearly made the concerns of the great majority of the citizens of this nation all but irrelevant to the politicians.

I implore you to get involved!

If this situation concerns you or especially if it angers you, I ask you to call your Senators and Congressional "Representative. This is not only your right- it is your obligation! You need to politely but pointedly, demand to know what they are doing to protect our nation. You need to ask them how they are protecting you and your families. You can also forward this commentary to them.

All I ask is that you make it clear to our politicians that we are not as dumb as they hope we are!

We live in a perilous world and in a perilous era. The survival of our nation and the lives of our citizens hang in the balance

There are frequent reports of such injustice in the papers - but rarely in the TV news.

The law is now concerned with compliance to regulations, NOT right & wrong.

It is an offence to smack naughty children - let them run wild & the law will eventually deal with them when their exercise of their "human rights" has to be dealt with by prison.

My brother-in-law reported a window breakage to the police. They were concerned with his ethnicity, for their statistics. (It looked like "malicious damage" by an airgun pellet, not an attempt to break in.) He is notorious with council officials for his opposition to wheelie-bin regulations, so perhaps it was unofficial harassment by the collection squad.

The bin-men leave the bins on narrow pavements (blocking wheel-chair progress) & in gateways, so that post is placed ON the bin, not delivered to the door.

This, coupled with their health-care package is just unbelieveable:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...68302.html

I think Isaiah knew about the Liberals even in his day!



Isaiah 3:9
The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. WOE unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.


Isaiah 3:11
WOE unto the wicked! [it shall be] ill [with him]: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.


Isaiah 5:8
WOE unto them that join house to house, [that] lay field to field, till [there be] no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!


Isaiah 5:11
WOE unto them that rise up early in the morning, [that] they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, [till] wine inflame them!


Isaiah 5:18
WOE unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:


[b]Isaiah 5:20
WOE unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter![b]


Isaiah 5:21
WOE unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!


Isaiah 5:22
WOE unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:


Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, WOE [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.


Isaiah 10:1
WOE unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness [which] they have prescribed;


Isaiah 17:12
WOE to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!


Isaiah 18:1
WOE to the land shadowing with wings, which [is] beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:


Isaiah 24:16
From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, [even] glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, WOE unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.


Isaiah 28:1
WOE to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isaiah 29:15
WOE unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?


Isaiah 30:1
WOE to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:


Isaiah 31:1
WOE to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because [they are] many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!


Isaiah 33:1
WOE to thee that spoilest, and thou [wast] not spoiled; and dealest treacherously, and they dealt not treacherously with thee! when thou shalt cease to spoil, thou shalt be spoiled; [and] when thou shalt make an end to deal treacherously, they shall deal treacherously with thee.


Isaiah 45:9
WOE unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?


Isaiah 45:10
WOE unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

We can sit here and talk government all day long, but the fact of the matter is the Federal Government has VERY rarely, if ever repealed anything passed into law in regards to economic or social legislation.

Let's read the DoI, and I am going to put in bold my point, and yes, you will know where i stand in regards to our Federal Government by what I underline:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.



I really like Chuck Baldwin, and I vote for him, but even if he ever became POTUS, there is nothing he could do. Nothing less than complete liquidation will be successful at this point.

This post was last modified: Sun Dec 06, 2009 01:59 AM by Jim.

You are correct, my Brother! With Chuck as POTUS, we would also have to rid ourselves of the 6 Roman catholic black-robed henchmen on the USSC, and do a complete turnover of the ENTIRE Congress. DO NOT return ANY incumbents to political office. Anything short of eliminating the federal reserve, and returning to a sound gold-backed currency, would be another effort in futility. The Congress should also be disallowed from living outside the district they represent (no Washington homes!) and ALL the bureaucRATS should be fired and their positions eliminated.

Back to State sovereignity! Amen!

This article came from Tim Baldwin, a Christian attorney (a welcome sight in this day and age), who is the son of Pastor Chuck Baldwin. It was published on Jan 28 at the NewsWithViews.com website. Please take time to read and think about it:

By Timothy N. Baldwin,JD.

January 28, 2010

NewsWithViews.com

I find it quite amazing that a person who claims to believe in the Bible and who actually studies it would ever hold the position that Christians should (or must!) submit to government’s laws contrary to the Natural and Revealed Laws of God relevant to justice, judgment and equity. What is their main support for this position? It is Romans 13. Let us consider these verses and the Bible’s confirmation that our duties to God and man necessarily mean that we not submit to laws contrary to God’s laws. For purposes of this discussion, this article is limited to “What Is ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’,” in context of Romans 13.

Romans 13

Romans 13:1-6 says:
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.”
First, let us recognize that the Old Testament likewise declares government’s purpose to be identical to Romans 13’s description.
“A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.” Proverbs 16:10
“A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work. It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness. 
Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right.” Proverbs 16:11-13
“Mercy and truth preserve the king: and his throne is upholden by mercy.” Proverbs 20:28
There is nothing new about Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. It is as old as the oldest written book in the Bible--the book of Job. As will be seen here, it is as old as God’s immutable laws formed at creation. Thus, one cannot refer to Romans 13 as a justification for their pacifist and slavish position, because Romans 13 does not contradict the Old Testament explanation of our relationship to government, but rather confirms it.
Notice how God instructs every Christian to submit himself to “higher powers.” Some would have us believe that this instruction is an absolute command, without regard to legitimacy, authority and purpose of government. But the Bible commands otherwise. God conditions our submission to “higher powers” to the following. Government must:
1) be ordained of God (the authority of God), 
2) punish evil and not good (the laws of God), 
3) be a minister to the citizens, not the other way around (the purpose of God), 
4) not be arbitrary, but must be based upon God’s notions of good and evil (the direction of God), 
5) be a minister to God, according to God’s laws (the responsibility to God), 
6) be accomplish the ordained purposes of God (the accomplishment of God).
These are God’s expressed qualifications, determinations and conditions upon the subject matter, “higher powers” (i.e. authority of civil government) and “every soul” (i.e. citizens in the jurisdiction of civil government). Nothing in these verses even suggests that our duty to submit is without reference to God’s laws first and foremost. Thus, the questions arise from these verses, since these verses do not define the words themselves: what is (1) ordained of God, (2) evil, (3) good and (4) minister of God to the citizens?
These definitions are found in no other place than in the laws of God. It cannot be denied without insulting and contradicting the Scriptures itself (and America’s founding history) that God in fact created immutable laws at His creation of the universe and mankind. They are called the Natural Laws of God. The Declaration of Independence refers to them as “the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God.”
Man’s Laws Are Not God’s Laws
We know that man’s laws do not equate to God’s laws, for the Bible tells us that “we are to obey God rather than man.” Acts 5:29. And even if you insisted on the blasphemy that man’s laws equated to God’s laws, 1 Peter 2:13-14 states the same thing as Romans 13:1-6:
“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” (emphasis added).
Here we see that an “ordinance of man” has the same qualifications and determinations of God as do the “higher powers”: to punish evil and praise them that do well. So, you cannot get away from God’s requirements for de jure, God-ordained civil government, and thus, the inquiries remain as raised above.
God-Ordained Government: Punish “Evil” and Praise “Good”
For brevity’s sake, I feel at liberty to combine the question of “what government is ordained of God?” into the question of “what is good and evil?” for how can one reasonably argue that God ordains evil actions by government? If you in fact hold that position, then there really is no talking truth to you. Thus, when we ask, “What government is ordained of God?” we necessarily conclude that it is government that fulfills the God-ordained qualification that government punish evil and praise good.
Amazingly, there are many Christians that believe that government can do virtually anything it wants, without right of the citizen to resist, as long as it does not interfere with the “preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ,” meaning the message that Jesus, the Son of God, came to earth; lived a sinless life, was crucified on the cross for man’s sins; was buried in a tomb; rose from the dead on the third day; and ascended to heaven thereafter. To these Christians, this is the only thing government has no authority to regulate. Oh, they might throw into the mix that government cannot legalize abortion or homosexuality. But it stops around that point.
It saddens me that there are sincere Christians who think that God’s created laws, relevant to our duty to each other, our family, our community and God, are limited to those matters, which really have little to do with the operation of government. Indeed, to admit that government has limits at all necessarily requires one to inquire about all the limits of government and what they are.
Does such a one believe that government may, under ordination of God, take your property? Do you even believe that God gives man the right to private property? Does such a person believe that government may violate, under ordination of God, the compact (constitution) that the citizens created to control government action? Do you even believe that God requires government to honor such a compact? Do you even believe that man has the God-given right to enter into contracts with other persons? Would any right-minded person deny these rights and responsibilities given and imposed by God?
When you get down to it, most who hold this philosophy simply do not want to get involved personally and think that God is somehow going to save them from oppression simply because they are a Christian and God is somehow obligated to shield their ignorance and indifference from tyrants. This is such a distortion of reality and truth as revealed in nature and scriptures that it is almost unconscionable, for God clearly states that for peace to be achieved, God’s laws must be followed. And of course, laws do not follow themselves, but are made for people to follow.
Thus, when government’s purpose is to punish evil and praise good, those who facilitate the contrary result contradict God’s laws, purpose, ordination, direction and limitations on government.
What is “Good” and “Evil”
Shortly put, those things are good which comply with God’s laws; those things are evil which do not comply with or contradict God’s laws. This definition conforms to the enlightenment exposition of what good or evil action is: “the formal character of goodness and badness consists in a bearing…to a directive norm which we call a law.” Samuel Pufendorf, Two Books of the Elements of Universal Jurisprudence, (Indianapolis, IN, Liberty Fund, 2009), 235 (emphasis added). Scriptures confirm as well that God’s creation contains and perpetuates the very essence of God’s wisdom, which carry forth into all matters of God’s creation, including what is “good” and “evil”: “The law of the Lord is perfect.” Psalms 19:7; “The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.” Proverbs 3:19.
God’s creation of natural laws was designed to provide mankind with the blessings of life, liberty and property. “Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace and pursue it.” Psalms 34:14. “Great peace have they which love thy law.” Psalms 1119:165. “Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.” Leviticus 18:5. These laws were made for God’s will and purpose and when followed, allow even the atheist to reap the blessings of life on earth, even though he lacks a spiritual life with God. “One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.” Exodus 12:49.
God’s Laws Immutable
These laws are immutable and are based upon the eternal essence of God’s character and human nature. As Samuel Pufendorf says, “[The] immutability of the laws of nature is derived merely from the supposition that man’s estate will persist in the same tenor.” Pufendorf, at 218. Similarly put, “The Decalogue…are in fact civil [laws]…But when those are considered with the condition of human society, and so obligate all men, even apart from their promulgation by Moses, they are in fact laws of nature. And it makes no difference.” Ibid., 210.
William Blackstone confirms the same:
“For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion, so, when he created man, and endued him with free-will to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that free-will is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws.” Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England, 28–29, (emphasis added).
So says Scriptures: “He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.” Psalms 33:15 (emphasis added).
Natural Laws of God
Scriptures confirm that God created laws (distinguishing “good” and “evil”), which are natural to the existence and nature of man. While I know there are well-intentioned and intelligent people who claim that natural laws are not superior to God’s revealed laws, one must conclude that Scriptures nevertheless confirm their existence and never contradict them.
In the story of the first human beings on earth, Adam and Eve, we see how God made man capable to know what is good and evil without any civil laws being presented by man or God himself. (Indeed, God never revealed positive laws to man until scores of generations passed. Did no justice exist during that time?) “You [Adam and Eve] may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16–17 (esv). Indeed, Satan was correct when he told Eve, “God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened…you [will know] good and evil.” Genesis 3:5. Mankind did not need a set of laws passed to determine what is good and evil, which is why Cain fled for his life after having killed his brother, Abel, without cause: he knew justice required his life, for his murderous act. What told him this? His conscience, based upon the natural laws of God.
We see that one of the reasons God gave His positive laws to mankind was to add to the certainty of God’s natural laws, which existed at creation (to bring man to Christ): “What then is the law [as given to Moses]? It was added because of transgressions.” Galatians 3:19 (asv) (emphasis added). Indeed, how can there be transgressions except there already be a standard of good and evil? Moreover, how can positive laws be added, when nothing else existed before it? This also confirms that God’s laws were added, and did not contradict or terminate God’s natural laws.
During our founding era, men preached on the natural laws of God, and added them to their expositions on the Bible. Consider infamous Bible commentator Matthew Henry’s recognition that “the law, considered as the law of nature, is always in force, and still continues to be of use to convince men of sin.” Matthew Henry and Samuel Palmerl, An Exposition of the Old and New Testament, vol. 6, (Philadelphia: Haswell, Barrington, 183.
For this reason, the apostle Paul writes:
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.” Romans 2:14–15 (esv).
For this same reason, Thomas Jefferson declared:
“Man has been subjected by his Creator to the moral law, of which his feelings, or conscience as it is sometimes called, are the evidence with which his Creator has furnished him.” Jefferson, The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia, 591.
For this reason, John Locke says:
“[T]he law of nature stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men’s actions, must, as well as their own and other men’s actions, be conformable to the law of nature, i.e. to the will of God, of which that is a declaration, and the fundamental law of nature being the preservation of mankind, no human sanction can be good, or valid against it.” Locke and Macpherson, ed., Second Treatise of Government, 70–71.
Undoubtedly, “this idea of natural laws…[became] a fundamental principle in American constitutional law. Halstead Van Tyne, The Causes of the War of Independence, 230.
Natural Laws of God Determined
Enlightenment philosopher, Samuel Pufendorf, describes natural law as follows: “The laws of nature are commonly divided into principles, which [are] the fundamental laws of nature, whose truth and necessity arise directly from the very character of human nature; and conclusions, which are deduced from these principles by necessary consequence or sub-sumption.” Pufendorf, at 218. Is this not what the Psalmist said, “Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.” Psalms 49:20 (esv) (emphasis added). Without an understanding of God’s laws, man is like an animal, unable to know evil and good, and unable to know when a Romans-13-government exists. Is it God’s will that society be treated like animals and that government perpetuate the debasement of man, family, community, society and God’s laws? God forbid.
Without the execution justice within government, government is not only contrary to God’s ordination, but it is the perpetrator of beast-like behavior, reducing citizens to mere respondents to environmental stimuli. God Himself sees our actions in just that light: if man does not attempt to understand God’s laws and consequently, does not execute justice, those men are but beasts:
“I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.” Ecclesiastes 3:16–17 (esv) (emphasis added).
This is truth: one must study human nature to determine the natural laws of God relevant to what is “good” and “evil” (i.e. justice) in context of Romans 13. This construction of Romans 13 is confirmed throughout Scriptures as well:
“He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.” Proverbs 17:15 (esv).
“The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves” Luke 22:25–26 (esv) (emphasis added).
“Truth is lacking, and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. The LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice.” Isaiah 59:15 (esv) (emphasis added).
Consider as well that Scriptures declare that righteous persons will actually contend with or strive against those who forsake the laws of God, including government that promotes evil and punishes good:
“They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.” Proverbs 28:4-5 (emphasis added).
“Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.” Proverbs 17:26 (put inversely, “Also, to praise the just is good, and to strike princes for inequity.”)
One may attempt to ignore the direct influence the laws of God have had in the making of the United States of America, but their ignorance is merely that and proves nothing to contradict the truth of the matter. The entirety of American jurisprudence recognizes that:
God is creator of all things; God first created a single human life (not family, society or government), giving complete value of mankind into one being; Human life is a gift of God, with the natural, God-given rights of liberty and property; individual man has the power to occupy the earth and take dominion over it, creating private property in that individual; individual man has the power to create enforceable contracts by virtue of his right to control his body and property (e.g. marriage, sale or exchange of land and services, compact, etc.); individual man has the right to control his life and property in any manner not contrary to God’s natural laws; individual man has the natural tendency towards creating society for his utility, convenience and social desire; society has the power to create government upon its own will; government’s purpose is for the benefit of those who created it, not for those agents with power to administer it; given the sin nature of mankind, individual rights, liberties and freedoms will be best preserved and society’s peace and happiness maintained where government is limited to the principles of God’s natural laws and to the compact that society decides to create; violations of God’s laws and society’s compacts are null and void, with no binding effect, worthy of resistance
For this reason, Judge Jesse Root describes America’s jurisprudence as follows:
“Whereas, the truth, in fact is, that civil government is ordained of God, for the good of the people, and the Constitution they adopt, and the persons they appoint to bear rule over them, to make and to execute the laws, the Almighty recognizes to his ministers, acting under his authority, for the advancement of order, peace and happiness in society, by protecting its members in the quiet enjoyment of their natural and civil religious rights and liberties.” Root, Reports of Cases, xv, xvi

Let us not be ignorant any longer. God requires that government be just, righteous and equitable according to those laws God created and according to the limitations placed upon it by compact. God’s instruction of submission to “higher powers” is not absolute or unconditional. It directly relates for our benefit, just as God tells us in 1 Timothy 2:1-2: “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.” God’s plan for government was not that it oppress mankind, but that it supplement the liberty of man by punishing those who violate the laws of God so that WE may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all goodliness and honesty.

Not sure if this is on or off topic...

Hmm There are so many variable to this thread question. Should we do what is right. Yes if it be within our power to do so. No excuse for not exercising the power and authority given you by the LORD through the government. But on the other hand, should we resist authority to which we come under... Yes when you are at liberty to do so.

But the example I must follow is Christ; who had the power and authority and could have called 10000 times 10000 angels to destroy the earth…yet he humbled himself to the cross. One of the most vile ways a government can kill a man to show the world their authority over them and their submission. He was followed by the disciples most of them martyred. Paul is a good example, he walked that fine line of submission and exercising the authority allowed, yet he submitted unto death. The early Christians many were burned, eaten, tortured in arenas for entertainment, they resisted in their testimonies singing, witnessing or praising with their last breaths…

The quote of MS “For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject's bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, "Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government"? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law?”


At our current level of freedom in the USA I would agree, but as times change…Well,
Was queen Ester really much different?….

God is in all the details and is in every place and everything.
“EVERYTHING” this side of hell is a blessing… The LORD is longsuffering. If your still breathing, if the brain is still turned on then the LORD is still blessing you, and will use every good, every evil thing in your life to draw you to him, if you let him. The moment you cross over it all changes, a hard concept to get your mind around.

There are Christian submitting and dying under repressive regimens around the world yet today. As Americans, if we incrementally give up our god given freedoms by doing that which is evil in the sight of God, we have no just ground to stand on when the wickedness waxes worse…as it will.

I know some of this article has been discussed around the forum briefly, but thought it was worth a read:

By Chuck Baldwin
April 9, 2010
NewsWithViews.com

One would have to be a blind man to not see that America is fast losing the fundamental principles of liberty upon which our once-great country was established. And, without a doubt, the single biggest reason for this decline is the lack of concern and effort on the part of today's Christians and pastors to resist it.

All over America, when one approaches our pastors and church leaders with the obvious decay and ruination of constitutional government and Declaration principles taking place in our land today, the response flippantly comes back: "God hasn't called me to do that; I'm supposed to win souls and that's it." (Or words to that effect.) As if the call to Gospel preaching, evangelism, and missionary endeavor negates our responsibility as citizens of a free land.

Of course, this call to "win souls" doesn't interfere with these preachers' golf games; it doesn't interfere with their family vacations; it doesn't interfere with their active membership in whatever local civic organization they happen to belong to; it doesn't interfere with their hiring of a lawyer if they are falsely accused or defrauded; it doesn't interfere with their invitations to celebrity politicians for special church recognition on patriotic holidays; it doesn't interfere with them going to the polls to vote; it only seems to interfere when they are personally asked to take a stand in the gap for our country's liberties. Then, all of a sudden, they haven't been "called," or "God will take care of it," or "Jesus is coming soon," or "Religion and politics don't mix," ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

As a result of America's preachers' indifference (and that of the Christians they influence), our country is on the brink of becoming an oppressive and tyrannical state. No, let me rephrase that. America is already in the process of becoming an oppressive and tyrannical state. And it's the preachers' fault!

For some, it is a matter of ignorance (I think "willful ignorance" is more appropriate). For some, it is a matter of convenience. For some, it is comfort. For some, it is ambition. Whatever the reason, America's preachers are contributing to the collapse of the greatest free country the world has ever known--all in the name of saving souls.

What these preachers seemingly do not comprehend is that when the hammer falls on liberty in this country, it is going to FALL RIGHT ON TOP OF THEM--HARD. There is no mistaking it: when oppression's hammer strikes, Gospel preachers and Bible believers will be the anvil. And when it happens, it will not matter that a preacher was popular, or was likeable, or was non-controversial, or was compassionate, or was a Moose or Elk club member, or had a big church, or was a friend of the governor, or had "Law Enforcement Appreciation Day" in his church every year, or that he was sought out by political candidates for his endorsement. None of that will matter to a tinker's dam. The boot of state oppression will squash him like a bug! It will not spare him, his wife, his children, his health, his finances, or his feelings. And, ladies and gentlemen, at this very moment, we are not very far away from the hammer falling.

I have just recently come across an official document from one of our war colleges that is downright frightening. I will expose this document during my Sunday morning address, which is livestreamed on the Internet, this Sunday, April 11, 2010, at 10:30 a.m., Central Daylight Time.

As I read over this document (and the chill bumps began rising all over my body), I thought of all those preachers out there who have purposely refused to engage the body politic on behalf of freedom's principles; those who refused to take a stand for the Constitution and Bill of Rights; those who took the path of least resistance and refused to be controversial; those who put money and success before honor and right; those who meekly looked the other way while George W. Bush (and other neocons) dismantled constitutional government (and had John McCain been elected and was doing much of what Barack Obama is currently doing--which he would have been--they would still be looking the other way); those who claimed to be "too busy" to worry about politics; and those who thought that somehow their Christian duty did not include freedom's fight. What they do not realize is that they, themselves, are in the crosshairs. While they are making a hundred excuses for not actively helping to defend freedom principles, the enemy--after having eradicated the constitutional protections of our liberties--will jump on Gospel preachers and Bible believers "like a chicken on a June bug," as my dad used to say. I am personally convinced that the plans for Christian (and patriot) persecution are already in place.

As I read the above-referenced document (which I will expose this Sunday morning), many things--including the now-infamous MIAC report that most readers should already be very familiar with--began to make sense. And so did those reports of FEMA camps that we have all heard so much about, and maybe even the raid on the Hutaree "Christian" militia.

And does anyone really believe that those pastors who will not jeopardize their social standing or retirement programs in order to be faithful to the truth are going to miraculously grow backbones when serious persecution comes? Get real! These timid trumpeters piously extol the ancient example of Daniel's courage in rebelling against the unlawful command of his king; praise the Three Hebrew Children who would not bow to the image of Nebuchadnezzar; and commend Simon Peter for defiantly telling Jewish authorities, "We ought to obey God rather than men"--while, at the same time, quoting Romans 13 to justify their own cowardice and indifference.

It is no hyperbole to say that preachers who ignore and avoid the freedom fight do so at their own peril.

At this point, it might be helpful to remember Winston Churchill's challenge to England's citizens: "If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

I invite readers to tune in to my Sunday address this Sunday, April 11, 2010, at approximately 10:30 a.m., Central Daylight Time, as I expose this disturbing document from one of America's war colleges. Believe me, what I am going to expose has serious implications for every Christian, every freedom lover, and every American citizen who believes in an independent United States.