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Rapture of the Church
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Jim
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Here are the differing views on the book of Revelation specifically:
Futurism
Futurism is an interpretation of the Bible in Christian eschatology placing the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel generally in the future as literal, physical, apocalyptic and global. Other views place the fulfillment of such prophecies in the past as literal, physical and local (Preterism; Historicism), or in the present as non-literal and spiritual (Idealism).
Futurism has both ancient and modern variants, the most common among modern Protestant evangelicals probably being Dispensationalism.
Idealism
Idealism (also called the 'Spiritual view') in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as non-literal symbols which are perpetually and cyclically fulfilled in a spiritual sense during the conflict between the Kingdom of God and the forces of Satan throughout the time from the first advent to the second coming of Christ.
As such it is distinct from Preterism, Futurism and Historicism in that it does not see any of the prophecies as being fulfilled in a literal, physical, earthly sense either in the past, present or future.
Historicism
Historicism in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees the book's prophecies finding literal earthly fulfillment through the history of the church age and especially in relation to the Protestant- Catholic conflicts of the Reformation. A distinct feature of Historicism, which makes it very controversial, is the identification of the Antichrist (1 and 2 John), the Beast (Revelation 13), the Man of sin or Man of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2) and the Whore of Babylon (Revelation chapter 17) with the Roman Catholic Church, the Papal system and each successive Pope himself (a common position held by protestants in the reformation, which is not prevalent today).
One famous proponent of historicism, for whom eschatology informed on politics, is Ian Paisley, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party in Northern Ireland and Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster. Paisley's party is the largest in the region, and many believe that his political philosophy based on his eschatological view was one of the major exacerbations of the political violence that prevailed for so long.
Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism, Futurism and Idealism.
Preterism
Partial Preterism
Partial Preterism, which is the older of the two views, holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled c. AD 70 when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" (Revelation 17-18 ) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.
Most (but not all) Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. The "last days," however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the fall of Adam and Eve. Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in AD70. This would eliminate the AD70 event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.
Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.
Full Preterism
Full Preterism differs from Partial Preterism in that Full Preterists believe all prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming or Parousia. Full Preterism is also known by several other names: Consistent Preterism, Covenant Eschatology, Hyper-Preterism (a somewhat derogatory term), and Pantelism (the term "Pantelism" comes from the Greek and means, "all things having been accomplished"). Full Preterism holds that Jesus' Second Coming is to be viewed not as a future-to-us bodily return, but rather a "return" manifested by the physical destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in AD 70 by foreign armies in a manner similar to various Old Testament descriptions of God coming to destroy other nations in righteous judgment. Full Preterism also holds that the Resurrection of the dead did not entail the raising of the physical body, but rather the resurrection of the soul from the "place of the dead," known as Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek). As such, the righteous dead obtained a spiritual and substantial body for use in the heavenly realm, and the unrighteous dead were cast into the Lake of Fire. Some Full Preterists believe this judgment is ongoing and takes effect upon the death of each individual (Heb. 9:27). The New Heavens and the New Earth are also equated with the fulfillment of the Law in AD 70 and are to be viewed in the same manner by which a Christian is considered a "new creation" upon his or her conversion.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This post was last modified: Mon May 22, 2006 07:59 AM by Jim.
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| Mon May 22, 2006 07:50 AM |
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Jim
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Here are the basic three views of eschatology as a summary in thoughts:
Premillennialism
Premillennialism in Christian eschatology is the interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation in the Bible which sees Christ's second coming as occurring before or pre- his literal thousand year reign on earth which some envision to be centred literally on King David's throne in Jerusalem.
Proponents of Premillennialism have existed ever since the early church fathers of Christianity.[citation needed] Some premillennialists throughout Church history were also Covenantalist such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon, but in its current form Premillennialism is almost completely linked to Dispensationalism and eschatological futurism (regarding the rest of the Book of Revelation).
Premillennialism is by far the dominant interpretation of the "millennium" in Revelation 20 amongst Christian evangelicals, especially in America. Premillennialism is most often associated with Futurism as regards the rest of the Book of Revelation. Premillennialism's widespread acceptance can be partly attributed to the success of such Dispensational End times thrillers as Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth in the 1970s and more recently Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series.
Premillennialism stands in contrast to Postmillennialism and Amillennialism.
Amillennialism
Amillenialism [A, Latin meaning "in" (rather than the commoner "none"), and Millennialism, referring to the binding of "the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan" for 1,000 years as described in Revelation chapter 20 verse 2] (also nunc-millennialism or positively realized millennialism) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees the "1000-year reign" of Christ as having already begun.
This obviously holds that the kingdom is not a physical reign.
Amillennialism teaches that the Kingdom of God will not be physically established on earth throughout the "millennium", but rather
• that Christ is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father,
• that He will remain with the Christian church until the end of the world, as he promised at the Ascension,
• that at Pentecost, the millennium began, as is shown by Peter using the prophecies of Joel, about the coming of the kingdom, to explain what was happening,
• and that, therefore the Christian church and its spread of the good news is Christ's kingdom.
Amillennialists cite scripture references to the kingdom not being a physical realm: Matthew 12:28, where Jesus cites his driving out of demons as evidence that the kingdom of God had come upon them; Luke 17:20-21, where Jesus warns that the coming of the kingdom of God can not be observed, and that it is among them; and Romans 14:17, where Paul speaks of the kingdom of God being in terms of the Christians' actions.
In particular, they regard the thousand years references as a figurative expression of Christ's reign being perfectly completed, as the "thousand hills" referred to in Psalm 50:10, the hills on which God owns the cattle, are all hills, and the "thousand generations" in 1 Chronicles 16:15, the generations for which God will be faithful, refer to all generations.
Amillennialism is most often associated with Idealism as both teach a very symbolic and spiritualised understanding of many of the prophecies of the Bible and especially the Book of Revelation.
Amillennialism also teaches that the binding of Satan in Revelation has already occurred; he has been prevented from "deceiving the nations" by preventing the spread of the gospel. This is the only binding he will suffer in history: the forces of Satan will not be gradually pushed back by the Kingdom of God as history progresses but will remain just as active as always up until the second coming of Christ, and therefore good and evil will remain mixed in strength throughout history. This has lead some Postmillennialists to accuse Amillennialists (and Premillennialists) of being "pessimillennialists". Amillennialists have countered that the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of drawing in the net show that the good and evil will be sorted out only at the end of the world
Postmillennialism
Postmillennialism in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after or post- the thousand year "millennium".
Although some postmillennialists hold to a literal millennium of 1,000 years, most postmillennialists see the thousand years more as a figurative term for a long period of time (similar in that respect to Amillennialism). Among those holding to a non-literal "millennium" it is usually understood to have already begun, which implies a less obvious and less dramatic kind of millennium than that typically envisioned by premillennialists, as well as a more unexpected return of Christ.
Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ. This belief that good will gradually triumph over evil has led proponents of postmillennialism to label themselves "optimillennialists" in contrast to "pessimillennial" Premillennialists and Amillennialists.
An important distinction should be made within Postmillennialism to distinguish between Revivalist Postmillennialism (also Pietistic Postmillennialism) and Reconstructionist Postmillennialism. Revivalist Postmillennialism does not involve a theocratic outlook on socio-political life in the way that Reconstructionist Postmillennialism does.
In the United States, the most prominent and organized forms of postmillennialism are based on Christian Reconstructionism and hold to Reconstructionist Postmillennialism (see Gary North, Kenneth Gentry, Greg Bahnsen). Christian Reconstructionism is closely linked to Theonomy which has its roots in Dominion Theology, a theocratic form of Dominionism.
Postmillennialism stands in contrast with Premillennialism and Amillennialism.
In Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This post was last modified: Mon May 22, 2006 07:58 AM by Jim.
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| Mon May 22, 2006 07:53 AM |
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Jim
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Knowing these David, this is where I got the idea that you express amillennialist views.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Mon May 22, 2006 07:53 AM |
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Davo
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Thanks for that Jim.
Luther thought the millenium was the period from the time John wrote it till the coming of the Turks about 1100 ad.
Others at the time thought it was the first 100 years of the Churchm The RCC made a vast amount of wealth by teaching this and there was panic in the RC spere when the year 1000 came and many handed their property to the RCC expecting some spiritual benefit when the time came. When nothing transpired and they sought the return of their property, they found the priests and bishops had tied it up all legal and they were unsuccessful.
Amilleniallists (After Hendrickson) believe that the Revelation gives the entire history of the Church seven times. But it is a vague history with no details as far as I can see. I mentioned to one a-millenial minister recently that I believed the 10th and 11th chapters referred to the reformation ( a common historicist position) he said prophecy wasn't as precise as that. Another taught that the two witnesses were the church from the beginning of the gospel age to the second coming, whereas I believe that the ressurrection of the witnesses was the reformation.
Regards
David
Job 19:25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
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| Mon May 22, 2006 05:22 PM |
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Jim
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For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Tue May 23, 2006 03:43 PM |
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Davo
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Martin
I wasn't supporting Luther in his views, merely saying that this was another view. It was a commonly held view at the time, I believe.
Luther also said he did not belive the\book of Revelation was part of the scriptures, but I believe he changed his mind later on.
In a curious interpretaion of Rev 9 Luther thought that in Rev 10 both the angel and the seven thunders were the pope.
We should remember that Luther. at the beginning, was on his own, and unlike us had no works of previous believers to refer to. Later on as the reformers discovered the works of the Bohemians, Waldenses, etc., they had a library of previous teaching to refer to.
David
Job 19:25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
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| Tue May 23, 2006 04:04 PM |
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Brother Tim
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A fourth definition
A pastor friend of mine, when we were discussing the future, said that he was a "Panmillennialist". He figured that in the end, it would all "pan out".jemoticon(' ')
Laughing
In the Service of the KING,
Brother Tim Keyes (Proverbs 3:5-6)
When I fully rely upon God, I find that He is fully reliable.
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| Tue May 23, 2006 07:25 PM |
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Brother Tim
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ps
P.S. I don't know how to use these smiley faces, sorry.
In the Service of the KING,
Brother Tim Keyes (Proverbs 3:5-6)
When I fully rely upon God, I find that He is fully reliable.
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| Tue May 23, 2006 07:26 PM |
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Jim
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no problem, but your pastor friend is right, it definitely will pan out. It is a subject near and dear to me though, as it is a focus for my studies.
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Tue May 23, 2006 09:09 PM |
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Jim
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Gen. 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Rom. 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The fulness of the times of the Gentiles is NOT complete. We know this because Gentiles still rule over Jerusalem and the temple. When will this end? When the anti-christ confirms the covenant with the Jews and they begin their sacrifice again on the temple mount.
Rom. 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
In other words, Israel is still blind. Their eyes will not be opened until three things happen.
1) Bride of Christ is taken away(universal church/spiritual Israel)
2) Jerusalem is solely inhabited/in control by Israel
3) The anti-christ causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease
reference:
Zech.12:6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
I believe verse ten represents the opening of the eyes of Israel when they realize they missed the Messiah. When will this occur? It cannot occur immediately after the rapture because:
2 Thess. 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (the lie that the anti-christ is the coming messiah)
It will come when the anti-christ causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease
Look at the following verses:
Matt. 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet{see Dan. 9:27}, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {see Zech. 14:5}
Verse 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations". This is representative of the Bride of Christ during the times of the Gentiles preaching the Gospel during this time. This all has to occur(times of the Gentiles) before the 70th week can begin.
Then: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )". This speaks of the anti-christ standing in the temple-mount, I believe, claiming himself as "God". This occurs in the middle of the 70th week.
The anti-christ will cause the sacrfice and oblation to cease, and stand himself representative as God himself causing their(seed of Jacob) eyes to be opened to recognize that they missed the "one they pierced" Zech 12:10.
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Wed May 24, 2006 09:10 AM |
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Davo
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Matt 24: 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
AND
Matt. 23 :35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
David
Job 19:25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
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| Wed May 24, 2006 06:39 PM |
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Jim
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Davo, thank you for the reminder of the verses supporting the fact that it has not come to pass yet.
You probably meant it as a refutation but it cannot stand as such. What is the definition of "generation" here?
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
Jesus was only talking to Jews here, no Gentiles whatsoever. He was referring to the race of the Jews not passing away until the prophecies had been fulfilled, which they will be in the 70th week.
What else does He call this generation? Let's look:
Luke 9:41
And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither
If you read the entire New Testament, you will see that in almost very case the term "generation" is used toward the Jews specifically.
Matt. 24 is one of the most misunderstood chapters in the NT.
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Wed May 24, 2006 09:20 PM |
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Davo
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Matt. 24 is one of the most misunderstood chapters in the NT.
I certainly agree with that.
In Matt 23: 35, Jesus was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees, the priests, when he said "Upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous...." Upon you, that is those he was talking to, not the children or descendents. He goes on to say, "36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." referring to the same people.
Of course he was speaking to the Jews. That generation of Jews.
I think you know what the word "Generation" means, as well as I.
Even the NIV has got it right here.
It would be profitable if people made their doctrine fit the scripture rather than the other was round.
David
Job 19:25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
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| Thu May 25, 2006 03:05 PM |
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Jim
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Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were agreeing with me.
It is a fascinating thought of how God is not through with His people, physical Israel yet. We, as the Bride of Christ, must be out of the way for this to occur. I cry and pray for Israel knowing what they must go through to finally realize they missed the Messiah. But it is "par for course" for them, to use a secular cliche.
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Thu May 25, 2006 05:00 PM |
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Jim
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I have been studying some more and decided to post some questions and answers according to this subject.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 09:54 PM |
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