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Rapture of the Church
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Pastor Wally
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rapture of the Church
If you do agree, which you say you do, that weeks mean years, then why are you arguing?
My reply:
I am not arguing, simply explaining what I mean.
It was you who accused me of stating that the Bible may say one thing and mean another, and I agreed and showed from Scripture that it does.
And the Bible does not explain, only Strong and human common sense.
Quote: If you look at Strong's the word "week" has many fluctuations, the base simply means "seven":
Jim
So I must disagree with your statement that the bible does not explain what these weeks are. In Daniel 9:24-27, weeks literally mean "years" or "sevens of years".
So, you must agree that the Bible may say one thing and means another?
And the explanation of it is not from the text or context of this passage but from you.
The Bible does not explain what these terms of times and half times, days and weeks are.
The translators of the KJV however, did explain what a day meant;and in 14:14 we read: 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred dayse{e days: Heb. evening morning};
Do you agree that these are normal days?
However, you did not answer my questions about the 144000, which I believe to be a fugirative figure.
Walter
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
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| Sun May 14, 2006 08:32 PM |
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Jim
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Walter, you came in after halfway through this discussion asking questions that really didnt pertain to the discussion all that clearly. I have had a very difficult time trying to figure out what it is you actually believe.
The only clear thing about your discussion so far is that you believe that the bible is relatively "figurative" with no exactness for any biblical student to rely on.
To answer your question about the 144,000. I will beg to not answer at this time as it is really irrelavent considering the more fundamental things about eschatology we disagree on.
Anyway, that is my interpretation, and I stick to that. I do not think that the Bible is a book of riddles to be worked out in order to understand it.
And why make it all so complicated?
I find this statement to be very contradictory to your earlier claims about numbers of weeks and years in the bible being "figurative"
That is our issue here, we have completely different concepts of eschatology and we will just simply have to disagree.
I ask you to please go back and read this entire thread before posting anymore so you can get an idea of where we are coming from.
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Sun May 14, 2006 09:15 PM |
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Jim
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Folks who do not believe that weeks in Daniel mean "years":
When did we all get to heaven and when did Armageddon occur?
Folks who do not believe in the pre-tribulational rapture:
1) Where is this tribulation that has occured?
2) Where is the anti-christ? Who is/was he?
3) Where is New Jerusalem?
4) When did the mark of the beast start in? Do you have it since you are able to buy and sell?
5) Who were the two witnesses and when were they killed then resurrected after 3 days then raptured into heaven?
6) Give us an outline of what happened during the 70th week and how we managed to miss the worship of the great image, the signing of the covenant with Israel, the taking of the Mark of the beast, etc. etc.
And the most important question, just where does it describe anywhere in God's Word where the Bride of Christ goes/has gone through the 70th week.
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This post was last modified: Thu May 08, 2008 11:54 AM by Jim.
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| Sun May 14, 2006 09:32 PM |
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mnwickens
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I don't think you'll get an answer Jim, because really there is not one outside the pre-millennial pretrib position.
What will happen is someone will come along and say, "When it says ----- what it really means is -----."
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: - Jer 9:23
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| Tue May 16, 2006 03:07 AM |
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Jim
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because really there is not one outside the pre-millennial pretrib position
Not one that's congruent and rational anyway.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Tue May 16, 2006 06:40 AM |
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Davo
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Folks who do not believe in the pre-tribulational rapture:
1) Where is this tribulation that has occured?
2) Where is the anti-christ? Who is/was he?
3) Where is New Jerusalem?
4) When did the mark of the beast start in? Do you have it since you are able to buy and sell?
5) Give us an outline of what happened during the 70th week and how we managed to miss the worship of the great image, the signing of the covenant with Israel, the taking of the Mark of the beast, etc. etc.
And the most important question, just where does it describe anywhere in God's Word where the Bride of Christ goes/has gone through the 70th week.
Jim sorry to say, your thinking is muddled. Most of these questions have been answered a number of times, so it is pointless to keep repeating them.
I'll just repeat one
Who is the Antichrist? The pope is the Antichrist, The earlier believers such as the Waldensians, Huss and the Bohemians, Luther, Calvin and many others saw it in the scriptures. Calvin in his commentary on Ephesians said it was so obvious that a 10 year old boy could see it. What was obvious to a 10 year old boy in Calvin's day seems to have passed you by.
And add one.
Where is the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ. Rev. 19: 9 and 10
Love in Christ
david
David
Job 19:25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
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| Tue May 16, 2006 06:41 PM |
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George
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David, I cannot for the life of me figure out how you decided that New Jesusalem is the Bride of Christ???
The term New Jerusalem appears only twice in the New Testament. The first is in Revelation 3:12 and the other in Revelation 21:2. In both instances the New Testament uses the term "City" to describe New Jerusalem.
Rev 3:12 Him846 that overcometh3528 will I make4160 a pillar4769 in1722 the3588 temple3485 of my3450 God,2316 and2532 he shall go1831 no3364 more2089 out:1854 and2532 I will write1125 upon1909 him846 the3588 name3686 of my3450 God,2316 and2532 the3588 name3686 of the3588 city4172 of my3450 God,2316 which is new2537 Jerusalem,2419 which3739 cometh down2597 out of1537 heaven3772 from575 my3450 God:2316 and2532 I will write upon him my3450 new2537 name.3686
Rev 21:2 And2532 I1473 John2491 saw1492 the3588 holy40 city,4172 new2537 Jerusalem,2419 coming down2597 from575 God2316 out of1537 heaven,3772 prepared2090 as5613 a bride3565 adorned2885 for her848 husband.435
I realize the above may appear a bit muddled. However I used the King James Version + so that the Strong's numbers would be included. Now take a look at the definition of the word that is rendered as "city" in the English language.
G4172
πόλις
polis
pol'-is
Probably from the same as G4171, or perhaps from G4183; a town (properly with walls, of greater or less size): - city.
Please take note of the fact the definition says that city means a town, properly with walls. The Bride of Christ is the Church. The Church is the people. The people do not have walls as a city does. They are not even remotely connected unless you also believe the Bible is written in some sort of code.
My Goodness! I have tried to stay out of this nonsensical debate to the best I can. However when I see something like this it has to be corrected.
In Christ,
George
(Galatians 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
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| Tue May 16, 2006 07:44 PM |
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Brother Tim
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70 weeks of Daniel
Is it not possible that the 70th week of Daniel (which I believe followed right after the 69th week) is different from the period of "great" tribulation (which I think is yet to come)?
The 490 years of God's patience that preceded the Babylonian captivity parallels the 490 years of God's patience with Israel ending when the focus of the Gospel changed to the Gentiles (Cornelius' conversion/Stephen's death/Change from Jerusalem to Antioch), which matches Jesus' response to Peter about forgiveness (seventy times seven, unless you read the NIV!).
In the Service of the KING,
Brother Tim Keyes (Proverbs 3:5-6)
When I fully rely upon God, I find that He is fully reliable.
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| Tue May 16, 2006 08:52 PM |
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mnwickens
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When did the antichrist make a covenant with Israel for "1 week"?
When did the antichrist bring in a mark without which you cannot buy or sell?
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: - Jer 9:23
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| Wed May 17, 2006 01:34 AM |
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Davo
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Martin
When did the antichrist make a covenant with Israel for "1 week"?
Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the Antichrist would make a covenant with Israel for one week. Neither does it say that anyone else would make a covenant with Israel for one week.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Read it carefully. Where does it mention "Antichrist" where does it say "Make a covenant" where does it say "Break a covenant" I can't read it. You have invented it. "He", the last person mentioned, eg Messaih, would confirm the covenant with many (Israel) for one week. This is the week from the Lord's baptism to the conversion of Cornelius, when the covenant was offered freely apart from the many. The "He" cannot refer to the prince that shall come as it is people are the subject.
When did the antichrist bring in a mark without which you cannot buy or sell?
For centuries you could not buy or sell if you did not have the pope's mark, the sign of the cross, given by the priest at baptism on the forehead, and by the communiant at mass with the right hand.
As has already mentioned, when the pope calls himself the Vicar of Christ, he is calling himself Antichrist, as both mean the same.
David
Job 19:25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
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| Wed May 17, 2006 02:04 AM |
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mnwickens
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Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the Antichrist would make a covenant with Israel for one week. Neither does it say that anyone else would make a covenant with Israel for one week.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: this is Christ, we seem to agree on this and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; if Christ be that "prince" then that makes the Romans His people, right? and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:the confirming of the covenant takes place after the Messiah has been cut off and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.it is in the middle of this week that the covenant is ended.
Read it carefully. Where does it mention "Antichrist" where does it say "Make a covenant" where does it say "Break a covenant" I can't read it. You have invented it. "He", the last person mentioned, eg Messaih, would confirm the covenant with many (Israel) for one week. This is the week from the Lord's baptism to the conversion of Cornelius, when the covenant was offered freely apart from the many. The "He" cannot refer to the prince that shall come as it is people are the subject.
All I can think is inconsistant. What time periods are these weeks? Does each week have its own time period? Messiah? Is it just coincidence that the the 2300 days mentioned in Daniel 8:14 were literally fulfillled when Antiochus stopped worship and sacrifice at the Temple? If that figure was literal why do we start getting figurative in the next chapter?
Is it just a coincidence that Revelationa 12:6 speaks of one character persecuting others for a period of exactly 3.5 years just as pre-mills say Antichrist will? Why can we take Daniel 8 as literal but then Daniel 9 has to be figurative?
For centuries you could not buy or sell if you did not have the pope's mark, the sign of the cross, given by the priest at baptism on the forehead, and by the communiant at mass with the right hand.
As has already mentioned, when the pope calls himself the Vicar of Christ, he is calling himself Antichrist, as both mean the same.
Concerning this mark, if you "read it carefully" instead of making things up, you will find in Revelation 14:9 that whoever received it was was hell bound. Does that mean that whoever was given the mark "by the priest at baptism on the forehead, and by the communiant at mass with the right hand." was condemned and could not be saved?
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: - Jer 9:23
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| Wed May 17, 2006 02:54 AM |
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Jim
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Davo, you have given no proof, no, let me change that, not even a scrap of evidence that your way of thinking has any rationality to it. there is no biblical basis for your claims.
The simple fact that you claim that anyones thinking is muddled is quite erroneous.
You apparently believe that Jesus CHrist will blaspheme His deity as being the one that He will reconfirm the old covenent of Judaism.
????????
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This post was last modified: Thu May 08, 2008 11:56 AM by Jim.
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| Thu May 18, 2006 07:22 AM |
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Jim
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Jim sorry to say, your thinking is muddled. Most of these questions have been answered a number of times, so it is pointless to keep repeating them
Show me anywhere where you have given a rational answer to any questions given you.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Thu May 18, 2006 07:25 AM |
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Jim
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David, I cannot for the life of me figure out how you decided that New Jesusalem is the Bride of Christ???
George, another important question is, "Davo, since you know who the anti-christ is, why don't you enlighten everybody with the proof, or is it just some great secret only know by you and a few, you know, kind of like the JW's?"
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Thu May 18, 2006 07:28 AM |
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Jim
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Just to humor you Davo:
When did the antichrist make a covenant with Israel for "1 week"?
There's two problems with this question:
1) The anti-christ didn't, he will (future)
2) He doesn't make a covenant, he confirms it.
Daniel 9:27
And he(the anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th week of Daniel): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(He will break this covenant he made with Israel).
and
Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the Antichrist would make a covenant with Israel for one week. Neither does it say that anyone else would make a covenant with Israel for one week.
Read it carefully. Where does it mention "Antichrist" where does it say "Make a covenant" where does it say "Break a covenant" I can't read it. You have invented it.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
It says it right there, plain as day. These are all your issues, not the bibles. If you can't read it, it certainly doesn't mean it is not there.
Remember, you are in the book of Daniel. The subject is upon Daniels seventy of sevens(years), that doesn't change, neither does God. the second subject in that verse is still referring to the same week in the first subject. That week is seven years, pretty cut and dry. Here is another repeat of the scripture and explanation that you claim I have not given:***And please actually read it this time instead of posting off the cuff.
Daniel 9:27
And he(the anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th week of Daniel): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(He will break this covenant he made with Israel).
You see, the important thing to note, using the bible as it's own commentary, we see that he confirmed the covenant with Israel, and that covenant was to restart the sacrifice and oblation in the future at the rebuilding of the temple.
How do we know this? Because if you look at the second part of the verse, using the bible as it's own commentary, he breaks this covenant that he made with them 3 and 1/2 years prior to this (...confirm the covenant(Judaic sacrifice Yom Kippur) with many(the Jews, seed of Jacob).
What covenant could the anti-christ have confirmed? (key-word here, notice it doesn't say that he created a covenant, but confirmed it). This means it has to have been a covenant that the Jews were familiar with, in this case, the Mosaic covenant. We know this because the breaking of the covenant caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The only covenant ever created that gave the Judaic sacrifice and oblation to occur was the Mosaic covenant(Torah) given by God to Moses (see Exodus 29). This is the covenant that the anti-christ 'confirms' here in Dan. 9:27.
So you see, the sacrifice and oblation were not stopped after Christs' death burial and resurrection in act. His justification caused the temple curtain to be torn in twain, symbolizing that the old covenant was ended and the New Testament (Jesus Christ) was the new propitiation for all mankinds sin, but the Jews did not believe this and continued the now blasphemous action of animal sacrifice. The Lord would not permit this, so how did He take care of it? He sent General Titus and the Roman armies under the uprising of the Jews in 66A.D. and ultimately quenched the uprising with the final insult of destryong their temple causing their entire way of life to be thwarted.
Since that time, they have done everything they could to get the temple mount back to restore the temple and restart the Judaic sacrifice of Yom Kippur. If you go read about it you'll see what I mean. Since that time in 70AD there has been a sect of orthodox Jewry that has kept the process of the temple sacrifice fresh in their minds. They teach each other and keep meticulous records on how the sacrifice is to be performed unti lthe day they rebuild their temple.
As some have purported "he" in Dan. 9:27 could certainly not refer to Christ as Christ would never "confirm" the covenant of sacrifice with Israel as this would be blasphemous, so it is quite obvious that the confirmation would come from the "anti-christ".
Love in Christ,
Jim
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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| Thu May 18, 2006 09:24 AM |
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