Love ya Martin, can't wait to see you fine folks.

And George, you are exactly right.

Many people completely reject definitions which summarize a particular belief. For example, the words "trinity" and "rapture" summarize a persons short discription of something they are tryign to explain without expositing that view in a discussion.

I sometimes have shown myself to have a problem with anyone who bases their doctrinal belief, in claim, upon a statement of faith, canon, or Confession of Faith. However, these are necessary, but not ultimate in authority.

Anyhow, George is definitely right, the word rapture has been around since the late 16th century and used, in this specific context, as a taking away/seizing unto the Lord to describe the events of 1 Thess. 4:17.

Any argument based against the invocation of a term used to describe something for brevity reasons holds very little weight in my small opinion.

This post was last modified: Thu May 11, 2006 09:49 AM by Jim.

The main point I want anyone who believes in mid/post-tribulational rapture to show is, what happens to the church(Bride of Christ) during the tribulational times(70th week). Show in scripture where the Bride of Christ is during the 70th week.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Jim wrote

Jim I don't see how you connect RCCs with the historicist teaching as the historicist view is that the pope is the antichrist and no RCC could accept that/

However both preterit and futurist teachings were inventent by RCCs specifically to counter this teaching.

David

Jim,
I can not follow you in your interpretation of the Bible and am of the opinion that you read far more into it than it really says.
As far as reality is concerned the Judaic sacrifice and oblation have ceased and disappeared with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
That temple has never been rebuilt.

And as far as the 144000 are concerned, they are the servants of God, as verse 3 of Revealtion 7 tells us:
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
Note: It does not say: seed of Jacob.
I do not believe that they were Jews at all but all the people of God because straight after the sealing we read this: 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Those people had come out of the great tribulation and washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, they were the Bride of Christ, the Church of all ages, and they were in heaven, as the angel explained to John:
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Do you note the symbolic of profetic language? They serve Him day and night in His Temple, but there is no day or night in heaven. There will be no need of Sun or heat, no more hunger or thirst, and no more tears.

Anyway, that is my interpretation, and I stick to that. I do not think that the Bible is a book of riddles to be worked out in order to understand it.
And why make it all so complicated?
What I need to know is all there and sufficient for my salvation.

God bless,
Pastor Wally

Where is the evidence for this statement? What historical documents back this up?

Pastor Wally

So you are saying that this is all figurative:

Verse 9 clearly moves the narrative on by saying, "After this..." the scene has changed and is not necessarily, or even likely to be the same people.

How can you say we complicate things by looking at Scripture and saying, "It says 1 + 1 = 2 so 1 + 1 must equal 2." You and others say, "It says 1 + 1 is 2, but it really means is..."

We are not the ones to complicate things..[/i]

Jim asks:

So you are saying that this is all figurative:

My answer,

Yes, I do. All profetic language is. And especially the Book of Revelation which was written in a code to prevent persecution.

And most well known commentators do as well.

So Christ fulfilled all the prophecies for the first advent literally but all the prophecies of the New Testament are figurative?

Where does Scripture advocate such a white wash of allegory?

Really, there is no arguing with "It's all a picture so I interpret it as I please."

There are no rules, no defining lines, no method of interpretation.

Lastly, where do we find it said that Revelation was written as symbols in order to avoid persecution? Since when has God's prophets hidden the truth behind codes in order to avoid problems?

First, Martin asked the question, and I probably would have asked the same question.

Second, if you believe in the book of Revelation to be a "code", then that speaks volumes. The bible is not decipherable by a code-ring someone will find in a box of cereal or a cracker jack box to be decoded by the theological intellect as many men today have asserted.

And last but not least, most well known commentators do NOT believe this, at least the worthwhile ones to read, believe this teaching. Unless the term "well known" dictates the teaching of the secular world, and then the thought of them believing in bible "code" wouldn't be my first concern about their views.

You are entitled to your opinion, all the scripture is there to back it up.

General Titus and the destruction of the temple in 70AD seems to be a stumblingblock for many eschatologists. For this event to say that this fulfilled the middle of the seventieth week, is not only incongruent with biblical timeline, it seems to give sort of a parallelism to the idea along the lines of purgatory. There is no biblical basis for backing it up, but a general picture is formed in the minds of the individual who believes it because it has so many similarities to the 70th week.

The one part you may have missed concerning this is:

Daniel 9:27
And he(the anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th week of Daniel): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(He will break this covenant he made with Israel).

You see, the important thing to note, using the bible as it's own commentary, we see that he confirmed the covenant with Israel, and that covenant was to restart the sacrifice and oblation in the future at the rebuilding of the temple.

How do we know this? Because if you look at the second part of the verse, using the bible as it's own commentary, he breaks this covenant that he made with them 3 and 1/2 years prior to this (...confirm the covenant(Judaic sacrifice Yom Kippur) with many(the Jews, seed of Jacob).

What covenant could the anti-christ have confirmed? (key-word here, notice it doesn't say that he created a covenant, but confirmed it). This means it has to have been a covenant that the Jews were familiar with, in this case, the Mosaic covenant. We know this because the breaking of the covenant caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The only covenant ever created that gave the Judaic sacrifice and oblation to occur was the Mosaic covenant(Torah) given by God to Moses (see Exodus 29). This is the covenant that the anti-christ 'confirms' here in Dan. 9:27.

So you see, the sacrifice and oblation were not stopped after Christs' death burial and resurrection in act. His justification caused the temple curtain to be torn in twain, symbolizing that the old covenant was ended and the New Testament (Jesus Christ) was the new propitiation for all mankinds sin, but the Jews did not believe this and continued the now blasphemous action of animal sacrifice. The Lord would not permit this, so how did He take care of it? He sent General Titus and the Roman armies under the uprising of the Jews in 66A.D. and ultimately quenched the uprising with the final insult of destryong their temple causing their entire way of life to be thwarted.

Since that time, they have done everything they could to get the temple mount back to restore the temple and restart the Judaic sacrifice of Yom Kippur. If you go read about it you'll see what I mean. Since that time in 70AD there has been a sect of orthodox Jewry that has kept the process of the temple sacrifice fresh in their minds. They teach each other and keep meticulous records on how the sacrifice is to be performed unti lthe day they rebuild their temple.

As some have purported "he" in Dan. 9:27 could certainly not refer to Christ as Christ would never "confirm" the covenant of sacrifice with Israel as this would be blasphemous, so it is quite obvious that the confirmation would come from the "anti-christ".

Love in Christ,

Jim

This post was last modified: Tue Feb 19, 2008 06:10 PM by Jim.

Davo:

I am not referring to the catholic Church (RCC) here, I am referring to the reformed church here in the states. Oops, I missed that correlation and for that I do certainly apologize. I am NOT referring to the catholic church as thought posted above, I will correct that from now on, sorry for the misuse of the acronym Davo.

I meant that the Reformed church believes in the historicist viewpoint.

All I can say is that it is pretty frightening to me that a man who professes to be a man of God and leads a flock of God's sheep actually believes any part of the Bible was written in code. My goodness! Of course that explains a lot of things to me.

In Christ,
George

Soryy George, perhaps I should not have used the word "code", but stuck to "figurative and symbolic language".

God bless,
Wally

Jim said:

How can you say we complicate things by looking at Scripture and saying, "It says 1 + 1 = 2 so 1 + 1 must equal 2." You and others say, "It says 1 + 1 is 2, but it really means is..."

With profetic language we do because the Bible does.
Let me explain:

The 144000 are mentioned again in chapter 14, or some other group, but again 144000.
And I quote:
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemeda{a redeemed: Gr. bought} from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Are these the same 144000 as the one we first discussed?
And if not, why again 144000?
Or could this figure be a symbolic or figurative one?

You said: ." You and others say, "It says 1 + 1 is 2, but it really means is..."

We do and so does the Bibble.

Let's go to Daniel this time, and in chapter 8 it says this:

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred dayse{e days: Heb. evening morning}; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Are those figures literally or figurative?

Or take these:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finishd{d finish: or, restrain} the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be builte{e be built...: Heb. return and be built} again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenantf{f the covenant: or, a covenant} with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Does the word "week" here actually means 7 days, or is it figurative language and could it mean a year? (as many believe, including myself)
The Bible does not explain.
And you will find the same in most of the prophesies.

And therefore, what Jim accused me off saying is true, the Bible may say one thing and mean something else.
Even Daniel himself could not understand, so why should we try.

God bless,
Pastor Wally.

I wonder, if during the rapture, we will have time to say... "I told you soooooooooooo..."



Some discussions will never be settled here as we are coming at passages from two entirely different angles.

Walter,

Are you not reading the posts? Why do you keep confusing what I am saying with brother Martin's?. Don't get me wrong, I am flattered to be accused of Martin's words....

Anyhow, if you are even missing the fundamentals of reading things in context, then my showing you what scriptures are saying is not going to be understood either.

If you do agree, which you say you do, that weeks mean years, then why are you arguing?

If you look at Strong's the word "week" has many fluctuations, the base simply means "seven":

We get the timeline by using common sense that it obviously couldn't mean literally weeks as the end times would have occured thousands of years ago. If they mean "seven" of years we get a more rational picture of a congruent timeline for which we can follow prophecy fulfillment and yet to be fulfilled. Anyone who thinks that it could be a mix-match of days here, weeks there, years here, etc. is not using rational thought. the bible is consistent and not contradictory. It brings context to be consistent and wouldn't confuse God's children for He is not the author of confusion.

So I must disagree with your statement that the bible does not explain what these weeks are. In Daniel 9:24-27, weeks literally mean "years" or "sevens of years".

Love in Christ,

Jim