I believe in the Rapture of the Church.

So do I. We'll meet Him in the clouds as He returns to begin His Millenial Reign.

I believe that we will rise to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air. Is that what you mean but "The Rapture?" If so why don't you say so. If not what do you mean.


Looking back, I see that Jim wrote

I don't think I said that. I certainly did not mean that Isaiah is any way mythical.

Jim, can I ask you if Joseph's dream in Gen 37: 9,10 was fulfilled in history or will it be fulfilled in the future?

David

I am not sure what this has to do with anything, or what your angle is.

I am almost afraid to ask what correlation you are going to attempt to make with this verse.

It obviously happened in the past along with his first dream.

Just to clarify, were you being sarcastic or did you really not know what he meant by "rapture"?

This is what I believe will happen at the end of times:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

By the way, not all Christians know the word Rapture, it is not in the Bible and not known in any other language but English.

God bless,
Pastor Wally

For those who do not believe in a pretribulational rapture where would you place the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and the Bema Seat?

In heaven

Oh, and what's the Bema Seat, never heard of it.

We'll stick to the Marriage supper for the time being.

At what point are we in Heaven for a sufficient time to partake in the Marriage Supper?

As I understand what is being said we are here on earth, Christ comes back, we go up to meet Him in the air and then come straight back down.

Heaven knows no time and everything there is eternal. That is why I do not believe in a 1000 year millenium, that figure is symbolical as most prophetic figures are. But it means forever and ever.
As I said before and as it is recorded in Scriptures and sung by the Church for centuries: "And He shall reign forever and ever".

As for coming back to earth after meeting with Christ in the clouds, that is unthinkable. The Bible tells us in 1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

When I go to heaven I will stay in heaven, FOREVER.

God bless,
Pastor Wally

I can't make that fit with the chronology and events of Revelation 19-20. It is interesting that there is no mention of the 24 elders, most likely reps of the church, during the whole period described as the Great Tribulation. John is called, "Come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 and then no church is mentioned on the earth until Revelation 19. But I understand some see that as purely circumstantial, so we'll leave that.

But in Revelation 19 it speaks of the praises and worship in Heaven, then we find the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, then Christ, with His armies, makes war on the earth.

Chapter 20 follows hot on the heels and only there do we find Satan bound and there we find repeated references to 1000 years.

If Satan is bound now then what do you do with all the Scriptures that describe him as being active?

If Satan is bound later then where does that fit in your eschatology?

If Satan is bound now when did the events of Revelation 19 take place?

I realise not all the chapters of Revelation are chronological, but the language and grammer of 19 and 20 bind them together.

Brother Martin answered this very well with his questions. My addition would be the fact that Satan is loosed for a season (1000 years), and then goes into the lake of fire (scripture Martin gave). This is all performed after the millennium. If he is cast into the lake of fire after this "season", then it would never occur, if it is as you say, "eternity". When does "after eternity" occur?

Just my thoughts,

Jim

Pastor Wally quotes:

That is correct, you and I will stay in Heaven, immediately after the "rapture". This means, that before the 70th week of Daniel begins, the Bride of Christ will be taken in the clouds(1 Thess. 4:17), making the Holy Spirit no longer available on the earth(2 Thess. 2:7) in the form of christians, not completely taken out of the way, and paving the way for the anti-christ to come(2 Thess. 2:8 ). this will usher in the 70th week.

The middle of the tribulation(3 and 1/2 weeks into the 70th week of Daniel), the anti-christ will cause the revived Judaic sacrifice and oblation to cease(Daniel 9:27), causing the 144,000 pure-blood Jews(seed of Jacob) to recognize that the anti-christ is not the true Messiah, seeing that seeketh after a sign, and realize they missed Jesus Christ.

These Jews will enter into the great tribulation (second half of the 70th week/time of Jacob's trouble, aptly named seeing as these will be pure-blood lineage of Jacob) and will be martyred.

I ultimately reject the historicist theory of eschatology. I believe it is completely unbiblical. I know I will get flamed for this from RCC and other members, but this is my rock-solid belief.

Love in Christ,

Jim

This post was last modified: Tue Feb 19, 2008 06:07 PM by Jim.

Jim, you da man!

I find it rather interesting that Pastor Wally states the word rapture is not known in any other language but English. Where then does the word come from? Did the English speaking people make it up? No, with a rather tiny bit of research it can be found the word is indeed known in another language and possibly quite a few more.

Main Entry: 1rap·ture
Pronunciation: 'rap-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin raptus

Look there, the word comes from a latin word that means exactly the same thing. I am not certain but I believe every language in the world that contains words that have their origin and etymology in the root of latin know this word.

In Christ,
George

This post was last modified: Fri May 12, 2006 09:34 AM by George.