Read the scripture carefully.......The Messiah was cut-off at the end of the 69th week!
Clue: Jesus was crucified at the end of the week; He was resurrected at the beginning of the following week. The prophetic clock stopped at the moment Christ declared, "It is finished!" on the cross.
Christ's death at Calvary stopped the prophetic clock, and the age of grace began.
That still leaves 1 week yet to be fulfilled, and it will be fulfilled in the future.
What surprises me is that you guys completely ignored my one question, so I'm going to ask it again.

If the 70 weeks of Daniel had already been fulfilled, then why did God give John the visions and prophecy of Revelation? Do you think that John ate some bad fish and dreamt it all?
What about the other New Testament prophetic writings?

The answer is, BECAUSE IT HAS NOT YET HAPPENED! Read the Scriptures carefully. The events of Daniel 9:24-27 and the Revelation are in the future! They have not happened yet.

And for the record, I did the math.
You are applying a solar year to the equation.
In a solar year, the calendar has 365.242 days
The Jewish lunar calendar (the calendar that Daniel would have used) was based on a 360 day year.
69 x 7= 483 x 360 = 173,880 days.
444 BC to 33 AD = 173,880 days = 483 years= 69 weeks!

How's that for math?

!at the end of the 69th week!" Where does it say that? As usual you are reading something that isn't there.

Dan 9: 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, After the 69 weeks is the 70th week.

The book of Revelation is the history of the Church written in advance.

Other NT prophecies refer to the same, and the second coming of our Lord.

2 Thess 2: 1-3 gives the order of the then future.
1. The falling away or apostacy. (This began during OT days and culminated in the RC apostacy.)
2. The man of sin revealed (in the Papal Antichrist.)
3. Our gathering to meet him.

Is that your order?

This post was last modified: Thu May 29, 2008 02:24 PM by Davo.

I say at the end not because I made it up, but because Christ was crucified at the end of the 69th week!
Chronologically speaking, Christ died on day 173,880.

Read this carefully:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Now where do you see anything that refers to this as the history of the church? It is a prophecy of things to come, as in the end of all things.

REVELA'TION, n. [L. revelatus, revelo. See Reveal.]

1. The act of disclosing or discovering to others what was before unknown to them; appropriately, the disclosure or communication of truth to men by God himself, or by his authorized agents, the prophets and apostles.
How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words. Eph 3. 2 Cor 12.

2. That which is revealed; appropriately, the sacred truths which God has communicated to man for his instruction and direction. The revelations of God are contained in the Old and New Testament.

3. The Apocalypse; the last book of the sacred canon, containing the prophecies of St. John.
(from Webster's Dictionary)

The Bible is written and preserved as complete: from our beginning to our ultimate end.

Genesis 1:1 says
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Revelation 22:13 says
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The Bible is about the history of mankind, from our beginnings to our end. The book of Revelation is about those things in the end of time, not the history of the church. The church is a part of the Revelation, but not the whole. Man's ultimate destiny and our eternal state is what John's vision was about.

Christ foretold of the last days in Matthew
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Not once does Christ say anything about His appearance on Earth being the fulfillment of all prophecy. Why would He have said anything about the end times if His coming was the end?
Christ says that the day or hour is not known; He was there! He was Christ, so why would He not acknowledge that the time was now?

The 70th week of Daniel is a future prophecy. It has not yet occured. Nothing in Daniel 9:26-27 has occured, except for the Messiah being cut off. Everything after that is a future prophecy.

Robert, its not helpful or necessary to quote large sections of Scripture. Better to quote specific verses to make your point.

Robert why do you assert, "The prophetic clock stopped at the moment Christ declared, "It is finished!" on the cross."? Jesus made it very clear that his rejection & death, & resurrection, were according to prophecy.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
....
Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

In no way did the prophetic clock stop. The seal of authenticity was stamped on prophecy. Yet you say, "Not once does Christ say anything about His appearance on Earth being the fulfillment of all prophecy."

This post was last modified: Thu May 29, 2008 05:25 PM by Ebenezer.

I must disagree with both. John begins by saying the prophesy is "signified" & declares that the prophecy is for its immediate readers.

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

It therefore refers primarily to the destruction of Jerusalem, giving encouragement to believers who are suffering tribulation, and assuring them that whatever happens, Jesus reigns supreme, as King of kings & Lord of lords.

In the seals we can see a close parallel to the Olivet prophecy, which from the outset relates to the destruction. I have already pointed out the 6th seal relates to Jesus' prophecy to the women.

Jesus speaks of the AD 70 judgment as a "coming."
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

In the wilderness, the LORD made his presence known by pillars of cloud & fire. His shekina glory cloud filled the tabernacle.
Exd 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

His next "coming" would be evidenced by clouds of judgment.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
....
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Note - tribes are the tribes of Israel, & earth is land. Judgment was imminent. Those of Israel who did not mourn & repent at the outpouring of the Spirit of grace will wail at his coming to judge. The time [is] at hand. The would see him by the signs of his presence, clouds of judgment. The believers saw the signs & fled Jerusalem.


Zec 12:10 ¶ And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

As for 2 Thes. 2, the temple is still standing as Paul wrote, so he is reiterating the Olivet prophecy - the next event in the prophetic calendar.

We can take warnings & encouragement, & see patterns from prophecy, but end times speculation is not the way to go, as we live the Christian life, looking forward to our Lord's glorious return for resurrection & judgment.

You only have to be one year out and your chronology is all awry.

I do not believe that the received chronology of the time is anywhere near accurate. You say the command was given in 444 BC The notes in my KJV give Neh. ch 1 as 446, chaps 2-11 as 445 and chap 12 as 536 BC. Nothing at all happening in 444. You are basing your interpretation on faulty secular chronology rather than what the scripture plainly says, Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69 weeks.

you may not have, but someone did.

You know what, believe what you will. I know what I have read, studied, and believe. I don't believe in secular anything: I base all of my decisions and beliefs on the Word of God as written in the King James.
What you are attempting to do is pervert the Word of God to fit your own idealogy. The Scriptures concerning Christ's return and the end times are simple to understand, as long as you approach them with an open heart and a willingness to accept what is written as God's Truth.

I asked to be a part of this debate, and now I am asking to step out of it. I cannot state my case any clearer than I have already. Scriptures do not lie; they do not stretch the truth, and they are not in error. What is written is what I believe, without hesitation or argument.
What you guys are attempting to do is to take what is written and make it fit into your own timeline and take away from what is there. I warn you, there are eternal consequences for what you are doing.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I have posted on another thread that it was not Artaxerxes who gave the command to build Jerusalem, but God. Isaiah 44:23-26 and published through his servant, Cyrus. verse 28. It was said at the time that the command went through Artaxerxes as Cyrus' descendant, but Cyrus' line died out with fis sons. Cambyses and Smerdes.

The names of some of these Persian Kings seem to have been Greek titles. Herodotus gives the meanings of some of them as:

Darius = Merchant.

Xerxes = Warrior.

Artaxerxes = Great Warrior.

Josephus says the king who was Esther's husband, Ahaserus, KJV, Aserus LXX, was known by the Greeks as Artaxerxes, but his Persian name was Cyrus. MVs call him Xerxes.

You see brother, this is what really bothers me about all of these end times discussions. We all read the same Bible (hopefully.) Yet it appears that each comes up with a different understanding of what we have read.

Hopefully no hard feelings have been created here. We have enough division from those who come to the site not having the same beliefs and motives as we.

In Christ,
George

George said:

Brother, I think this is where that much of our disagreements show up. Too many read the writings or listen to the preaching of others and develop their doctrine, particularly end-times, on these teachers rather than doing the research on their own. Too many believers consider that one must be "trained" to understand these things and therefore simply become disciples of men rather than students of the Scriptures.