In this month's Evangelical Times is an article by Israeli pastor, Baroch Maoz, entitled Israel after sixty years.

The following is an extract from the article:

Evangelicals

The fledgling evangelical church in Israel reflects both the vibrancy and the difficulties facing the nation -- the confusion and the desire to make a difference.

At the same time resurgent anti semitism is raising its ugly head world-wide, even among Evangelicals. There are those within the church of Jesus Christ who are reverting to the shameful patterns of the past.

Instead of humble preaching of the gospel, 'as dying sinners to dying sinners' we Jewish Christians hear others disavow Israel's need to hear the gospel, and witness a growing erosion of Christian sympathy for (and engagement in) true gospel preaching in Israel.

Evangelicals now seem to be torn between a political 'Christian Zionism' and an equally political 'Christian anti Zionism' -- both of which have lost their biblical moral edge and forgotten the burden of the prophetic message, calling the Jewish nation to faith and repentance.

Israel at sixty stands in need of the gospel, consistently lived out before its eyes and proclaimed with clarity and courage. Will the church of Christ rise to the occasion and to the opportunity?......

Baruch Maoz is pastor of Grace and Truth Christian Congregation, Israel.

ET do not put their articles on their site for a few months, so I can't post a link, however here are two earlier articles by Baruch:

Israel - fifty years on. May 1998 http://www.evangelical-times.org/Website...cleID=1391
The church in Israel today. March 1995 http://www.evangelical-times.org/Website...cleID=1949

Gentlemen,
I am "entering into the fray" quite late, but would appreciate the opportunity to join in these discussions.
Let me start by saying that although I am a backslidden Christian and also struggling with answering the call to ministry God has laid on my heart who is still trying to clearly understand God's plan for his life, I have been a student of prophecy and end-times events for many years. And, although I have been led astray by "corrupted texts" (NKJV, NIV, The Message, etc.)in some areas, I have only studied prophecy and end times events from the authorized King James Bible and texts prepared from the King James.
I am pre-tribulation and pre-millenial; I believe the Scriptures only support a pre-tribulation rapture and a pre-millenial Second Coming of Christ. In my opinion, based on closely studying the prophetic books of the Bible, there simply is no other way to correctly interpret the prophecies concerning end times and eternity. Where most find confusion, I find a simplistic approach to God's eternal plan for mankind. Prophecy and prophetic writings are not complicated or hard to understand. God's Word is perfect, and therefore meant to be understood by ALL who read it.
I also fully believe and confidently defend that all prophecies recorded in the Revelation are future; they have not yet occured. The seven churches were actual churches in John's day, but a close study reveals that the churches each represent a "church age" that still exists today. The final church mentioned "Laodicia" represents the current church age, that of lukewarm, ineffective Christians. Most churches today are not "on fire" for God; many are just "shows" done to benefit the individuals involved and not truly about spreading the Gospel of Christ. Yet there is a blessed hope in Christ's letter to the Laodicians that is meant for us today: repent and ask Christ into your heart.
Verses 20-22 say it all:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

I will stop at this point and re-read again the earlier posts before I say any more, so as not to repeat or re-hash earlier topics.

This post was last modified: Mon May 26, 2008 10:49 PM by RobNC1966.

As an add-on to what I wrote earlier, I would like to share my point of view on Tribulation and The Great Tribulation.

Tribulation as it is referred to in Rev. 1:9 is a reference to the persecution of the church and of Christians at the time that John was writing the Revelation. Just look at where John was as he wrote this: he was imprisoned on Patmos because of his Christian witness and ministry. The churches were also suffering from persecution, making it a great "time of trouble" for all. John's use of tribulation is not meant to indicate the "time of Jacob's trouble" in Daniel.

One thing that needs to be understood: Revelation is NOT in chronological order. There are events taking place in Heaven and on Earth: there are events that occur and then are recapped. Only by closely studying each chapter can you begin to see the pattern of chronology emerge.

Back to tribulation and great tribulation: tribulation occurs after the Rapture and begins when the antichrist signs a 7 year covenant with Israel. There is no definite time-span between the Rapture occuring and the 7 years beginning, but it would seem that the 2 would be relatively close in time, given the nature of the antichrist's initial appearance as a man of peace.
Once the covenant is made, then God's judgements begin with the opening of the seals. One by one, God's judgements begin to affect mankind.

Now, halfway through the 7 years, several things occur almost simultaneously:

(1) The two witnesses are slain by antichrist and left in the street for 3 1/2 days, at which time God resurrects them and calls them up.

(2) Antichrist is fatally wounded and then supposedly resurrected by the false prophet.

(3) Satan and his demons launch an all-out attack on God, and are finally cast from God's presence and down to Earth. At this point, Satan indwells the dead body of antichrist and "resurrects" him.

(4) Satan desecrates the temple and declares himself God.

After this midpoint, the "great tribulation" begins, and God pours out His wrath on mankind and on the Earth.

All of this can be found in Daniel and Revelation.

You want a "simplistic" approach? Let me ask one simple question:

How do the 70 weeks of Daniel (which we all agree represent 490 years from Artaxerxes' command to Ezra in 457 BC) not end in 34 AD, making the 70th week the 7 years beginning with Jesus' baptism & anointing, and ending 3½ years into the ministry of the Apostles, during which the covenant was confirmed to those who repented, believed & were baptised in the name of Jesus?

The final "week" cannot have occured yet, as it is a future event. Remember, Daniel's vision covers a vast portion of history, ending in a future event, specifically the end times and the rise of a leader who will promise peace but ultimately betray the nation of Israel. No leader has met the specifications set forth by Daniel. Therefore, the 70th week has not yet occured. At the end of the 69th week, the Messiah is "cut off", and the church age began. Until the rise of antichrist and the sealing of the covenant with Israel, the 70th, or final week, will not begin.
And, for the record, I never said that I wanted a "simplistic approach" to prophecy; what I said was I believe that God's Word provides us with a simplistic approach to prophecy. I have debated with many people over the years who want to make the understanding of prophecy complicated, and want to believe that the Bible's prophecies are "shrouded in mystery" and hard to understand. That is simply not true: all of God's Word is written so as to be understood by all who will read it. Why would God shroud the Scriptures in secrecy? Is the Word of God not meant for all to read? Of course it is, and prophecy, which occupies a great portion of the Bible, is meant to be read and understood.
I am continually amazed at the depths people will go to avoid prophecy. I have known pastors who avoid it altogether, claiming that prophecy is not to be understood my mankind. Others claim that only through a "prophet" can the prophecies be understood. Still others ignore prophecy and say that there are no future events to come, and that the Bible is only a historic book, not the living Word of God.
And maybe I missed something when I re-read the posts to this topic, but I haven't seen anywhere that everyone agrees the 70 weeks are fulfilled.
Somewhere in my notes and materials, I have a chart that spells out the 69 weeks and how the 70th is yet to occur. If I can dig it out, I will reproduce it here.

The prophecy says 70 weeks, NOT 352 weeks and counting. The 70 weeks were to achieve the redeeming work of Messiah:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus finished his saving work on the cross. As sinners repent and believe, so that saving work is applied. Prophecy was fulfilled in him. (See Luke 24)

The city & temple were rebuilt in troubled times. 69 weeks takes us to the beginning of his ministry, and certain events were to take place after that time, not necessarily during the final week. Notably that Messiah would be cut off - the cross, & the city & people that rejected him would be destroyed by a coming prince - the Romans fulfilled that prophecy. See Mat. 24, Mark 13. Luke 21.

The cross, in the midst of the 70th week brought an effective end to sacrifice & oblation. Christ was busy confirming the covenant during his earthly ministry (1st half week) and the Apostles continued during the second half week. Two significant events occurred to end the 70th week. The stoning of Stephen, who in the power of the Holy Spirit, declared the Jews "uncircumcised in hearts & ears," and the conversion of the uncircumcised Cornelius, thus opening the Gospel for the Gentiles.

That is a simple reading of the 70 weeks prophecy, completely within Scripture, within the timetable, without forcing the text in any way. Its not shrouded in mystery, not hard to understand. It doesn't need elaborate charts to explain it.

OK Ebenezer, let us begin:

What do you mean by 352 weeks and counting?

You quoted Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

When exactly did any of this happen? What vision and prophecy has been sealed up?

Let's continue further in Daniel 9, starting with verse 25

9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

When did this happen? It hasn't! This is a prophetic vision of the end times, and ONLY then will the 70th week be fulfilled.

You say yourself that the 70 weeks were to acheive the redeeming work of the Messiah. Christ's sacrifice for our sins was completed, but Christ's "redeeming work" continues even today, and will end ONLY when He returns at the Second Coming. Sin did not end at Calvary;only the penalty of death under the Law ended. Sin is still alive and well today, and will only end 1,007 years after the Rapture of the Church, at the final Judgement.

Please show me where there is everlasting righteousness!

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Were you always righteous? Was I? NO! We are sinners saved by grace, and have been made righteous by the blood of Christ.
From what you are saying, we would all be righteous from birth. There is not yet an "everlasting righteousness" among us. Only when the final hours are finished, and the last sinner is cast into Hell with Satan and his followers, and Christ is seated on His throne, will we have everlasting righteousness on Earth.

I agree that we are made righteous through Christ. However, righteousness is not inherited; if that were so, then ALL man would be made righteous. That it simply not true. Only through accepting Christ and repenting of our sins do we gain righteousness.

We are all sinners saved by grace, so yes I believe that we are sinners, and will always be sinners. Through the shed Blood of Christ, I have been granted salvation, but that doesn't mean that I am no longer a sinner. You are a sinner, I am a sinner, we are all sinners. Only one man was ever sinless, and that man was Jesus Christ.

As far as the 70 weeks, you are attempting to make something complicated out of somethig so simple. If Daniel's prophecies had been fulfilled in Jesus' time, then explain why the Revelation was written? Why would God give John the vision of Revelation if the work had been completed BEFORE John's vision? And, since John was present during Christ's earthly ministry and afterwards, then why would he not recognize that time as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies?
Ebenezer, you are attempting to confuse the subject. The Revelation makes it perfectly clear that Daniel's visions were of a future time BEYOND Christ coming to Earth and sacrificing Himself for our sins. The Revelation is a future event: nothing John describes has happened yet, although we are seeing the signs of the coming Tribulation times.

You said:
Jesus fulfilled prophecy, and made his own prophecies, but even his prophecies confirmed the 70 weeks prophecy for the destruction, which took place within the lifetime of the generation that rejected him. He also confirmed OT prophecy of his coming for resurrection & judgment.

Psa 96:13 ... he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Now show me where in the Scriptures it says that Christ judged anyone.
That is reserved for the end times. Christ will judge all mankind, but that is yet to come. Christ came to save us from sin, and His sacrifice does provide us with salvation from judgement, but He has not judged us, and will not sit in judgement until the end of time.

By claiming that the visions and prophecies are fulfilled, you are basically saying that we are here just hanging out, and that there is nothing else happening. Mankind is going to continue on forever, and Jesus is never coming back. Is that what you believe? Do you believe that we have been judged? Do you believe in a final judgement?

This post was last modified: Wed May 28, 2008 08:42 AM by RobNC1966.

The prophecies concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27 are not yet fulfilled.

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Nehemiah 2:8
And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.(emphasis mine)

So begins the first seven weeks, or 49 years, of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, starting in 444 BC.
49 years to rebuild Jerusalem = 7 weeks

From the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the crucifixion of Christ (Messiah) was 434 years
33 A.D.
434 years = 62 weeks

Total weeks = 69

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.(emphasis mine)

Isaiah 53 details the Messiah’s coming

Isaiah 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.



Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Israel rejected Christ as Messiah and so the prophetic timeline is suspended, or cut-off at this point, at the end of the 69th week!


Now, notice the second half of Daniel 9:26

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(emphasis mine)

Who is the prince?

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Where in history has this happened? It has not.
In 70 A.D. the temple is destroyed by the people of the prince who is to come.
Who did this? Roman soldiers!
Remember, the coming antichrist is supposed to be a Roman leader by heritage, and since the destruction of Babylon, Satan’s seat of power on Earth has been in Rome. The false prophet will come from the Catholic Church and, just as John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ, the false prophet will prepare the way for the coming of the antichrist. Actually, Rome has been preparing the way ever since Christ ascended, leading the persecution of the true Christian church.

Now, with all of that said, show me one place where Daniel 9:26 and 27 have been fulfilled.
The answer is that they have not! Since A.D. 70 the Temple has never been rebuilt, and only in 1948 did Israel become recognized as a Palestinian state. The Jewish nation has not yet returned to Israel, nor have they accepted the Jesus Christ is their Messiah.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Once again, a prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled.

Isaiah 11:1-12
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

This has not yet happened! All of these things must take place at a time yet to come!

For the 70th week of Daniel to have taken place, all of these things must have occurred! These events have not been recorded in written history, which must mean that they are future events. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly outlines these events are FUTURE events yet to occur.

Any questions?

Robert, first simple arithmetic. This post does not affect interpretation. We are of course all dependent on received dates.

This post was last modified: Thu May 29, 2008 12:34 PM by Ebenezer.

This post was last modified: Thu May 29, 2008 12:36 PM by Ebenezer.

RobNC1966

If the messiah was cut off after the 69th week, (26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off), in which week was he cut off?

Clue, what comes after 69?

The 69 weeks end when Jesus is presented an anointed, at the beginning of his ministry,

The Presentation

Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mr 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The annointing

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me....

Recognized as the most Holy

Luke 4: I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

The prophets were until John,

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached,

I did a search for preterism....

http://www.fundamentalpreaching.com/stra...-26-2.html

This post was last modified: Thu May 29, 2008 01:21 PM by Ebenezer.