Jim, is there a way to print the entire thread? It would help in reviewing the whole topic as you rightly suggest. My apologies for asking questions that have already been answered.

Brother Jim, I must say that I agree with that approach whole heartedly. For that very reason I stay out of this type of discussion. To me it creates divisions which ought not be. We have Christian brethren who are divided over a Book of the Bible that I believe no one knows all the answers to save The Lord Himself.

May I say that the things in the Book of Revelation do not concern me?That is not to discount it as a part of God's Holy Word but to say that if I die today I shall go to heaven; that is told me in the Holy Scriptures. If Jesus comes back today I shall go to heaven. That is also told me in the Holy Scriptures. Therefore I believe the things in the Book of Revelation that seem somewhat cryptic to us are for those that are left behind to be concerned with. Gosh I don't like to use that term "left behind" for obvious reasons but I refuse to allow anyone to take any word or words of the English language out of my vocabulary. That is akin to the word "gay." I will not let the homosexuals own that word.

Back to the subject at hand...the New Testament teaches me how to live. I have enough difficulty with trying to follow the way God wants me to live presently without trying to determine the things He has in store for the future. Do we not believe the Bible cannot and does not contradict itself? I certainly do. Then look at this:

(Mat 6:34) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Wow! Did not our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ tell us we ought not take thought or even think about the things of tomorrow? That is what I read in that verse. Are we not being concerned with things we ought not be concerned with by perpetuation of this debate on the end times? It certainly seems that way to me.

In Christ,
George

Brother Tim,

I am very sorry, I have tried multiple ways to do it, with very little success. I was thinking this very same thing again today too.

Brother George,

I can agree and do agree with your sentiments. I do feel however, that the importance of teahcing and learning about the end times can certainly sharpen our minds to the lateness of the hour.

Whatever the discussion from here out and in the past, I do hope we can all agree that the hour is late and we need to strive to get the gospel to others.

being that eschatology holds such a fascination for me, I have to admit that I approach this subject with enthusiasm as long as it remains benign.

And please do not hesitate to call me down, anyone, if I get a little offensive personally.

Love in Christ to all, may the Lord put a watch at our mouths and a guard at our lips.

Jim

Understanding the theories of the end-times (pre-mid-post-a-pan-etc) is a worthy challenge, but thankfully the differences (for the most part) do not change the way that we serve Christ today. As long as we can all agree that there is a lot that we don't know, and that we will not become offensive to those who see things differently that we do, then the discussion can be lively and educational.

Imagine what discussions the school of the prophets had during the OT times! The writings and spoken prophecies left everyone scratching their heads. I sometimes wonder just how big a kick (joy) the LORD gets out of His children faithfully striving with all their hearts to understand the mysteries hidden in His Unfathomable Word!

I love each of you who are helping me to search out my own questions, as well as those thoughtfully posed on this forum.

Yes brother, you are exactly right. Thank you for that addition.

As a pre-tribulation rapturist believer, I want to simply address Matthew 24.

My belief is that there is no reference to the rapture in the book of Matthew. I believe the events in Matthew 24 are restricted to the 70th week and the millennial reign of Christ.

There is a siginificant reason for this belief. The fact that the synoptic gospel of Matthew was written with the seed of Jacob in mind holds a lot of weight. That is the main reasoning behind this being the only location in the synoptic gospels that discusses this.

We, as the bride of Christ, have been on this earth since the day of pentacost(Acts 2). There has been approximately 2000 years since that day. For the timeline of Daniels 70 weeks to be consistent (there is nothing in the bible to claim otherwise), then that 70th week HAS to be a 7 year period, just like the previous 69 weeks.

Remember that 70 weeks has to pass, then at the very end, to the day, of that 70th week, Christ will come to set up His millennial reign on earth.

So where does this come into play? As we explained earlier in this discussion, the gap between the 69th and 70th week, has to be dedicated to the bride of Christ, the age of grace.

Folks, the gap would not be there, and the 70th week would not have to occur if Jesus Christ was accepted as Messiah by the seed of Jacob.

However, we were already given an indication that Jews would reject Jesus in Daniel 9. We know this, because it said that it would take 70 weeks to:

If Jesus had been accepted, then the beginning of New Jerusalem would have begun during Jesus’ time here on earth, and you and I would have all gone to Hell, who were not of the Judaist faith.

It’s a lot to think about, I know.

The key is the age of grace to complete the bride of Christ, then the 70th week to open the eyes of Jacob, completing the true covenant to Abraham to dwell forever in Israel. That is where New Jerusalem will be set up.


So, back to Matt. 24, the answer about to what time is addressed, is the 70th week of Daniel, it does not refer to the rapture or the age of grace.


Love in Christ,

Jim

Bro Jim,
Ordered the book today from Amazon for 8.95. I read his biographical sketch and saw that he was a missionary in Vietnam before the war broke out. If he's still alive, I'll bet he'd be an interesting person to talk with!
Thanks for the suggestion. Looking forward to it.
In His Grace,
Mongol Servant

He is my neighbor brother, and yours too. He is from greenville, SC, a good friend, and comes to our church often. He has recently had throat surgery, please pray for healing.

He lives here with his wonderful wife Nan, and I love him dearly, I have had many a wonderful discussion with him.

His time in taiwan was with General Shiang Kai Shek, witnessing to his armies.

Love in Christ,

Jim

P.S. brother, you are going to love the book. He has wonderful insight to eschatology.

In Christ,

Jim

Please let him know we are praying for his throat and to keep us abreast of his progress. I'd love to read some of his Vietnam history. Please let him know that I was introduced to a David Fitzstevens, a 3rd generation missionary to Vietnam (he's CMA) and his parents and grandparents were missionaries to the Vietnamese in the 30's & 40's. Bro Shelton may know David and his relatives. Looking forward to the book. Being from Greenville, he's gotta be a Tiger fan!
In His Grip,
Bro James

I certainly will brother. If you want to read his story in Vietnam and Taiwan, it is a book entitled "Through a Great Door". You can purchase it here:

http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?...&ad=FGLBKS

or you can order through BJU Press:

http://www.bjupress.com/webapp/wcs/store...Id=1540951

Love in Christ,

Jim

We have completed a 5 sermon prophecy conference by Dr. Bob Shelton.

It was wonderful

The Lord has truly blessed this man with teaching abilities, a humble heart, and a wonderful scholarly ability. He shows eschatology in a clear, concise, contextual, and literal point of view.

He goes with the viewpoint of using God's Word as it's own commentary. That we do not need to look at Revelation in a spiritual, allegorical, or a symbolic view. It is quite literal and we should take it in context.

I am working on putting his sermons in mp3 format.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Amen, Bro Jim & others!
If folks will remember, while reading/studying the Bible, that there are three classes addressed in the Bible (the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God), it will straighten out many problems. We can't cross the lines (rightly dividing!) and apply things for the Jews to the Church, or vice-versa. We can't apply things to the Gentiles in dealing with the Jews, or vice versa. No where in the gospel accounts, is Jesus teaching New Testament church doctrine per se; until the last chapter or so of each of the gospel accounts, Jesus is addressing Old Testament honoring, beard-wearing, sabbath observing, temple worshipping JEWS! There's not a New Testament Christian among them, until after the resurrection. That's why The Lord told Annanias that Paul was going to be His instrument (A Jew) to take the gospel and church doctrine, to the Gentiles. Now, don't start flaming me about being a hyper-dispensationalist - I'm not. Read on:

Bro Shelton's book is a great tool in explaining, from the Bible, as Jim said, not only the rapture of the church, but other events in a biblical time line as well. This book has charts that can also be used in teaching correct doctrine in a classroom setting, using an overhead projector.

A few other resources to help in this area, would be:
- One Book Rightly Divided, by Dr Doug Stauffer
- The Bible Believer's Guide to Dispensationalism, By Dr David Walker
- The Great Doctrines of the Bible, by William Evans

Hope this helps.

This post was last modified: Fri Jan 18, 2008 02:08 AM by Mongol Servant.

So I was reading through this thread (though some posts were ridiculously too long so I skipped it). There are so many views here but the problem all comes back to hermeneutics. Since Scripture is not given to private interpretation, only an objective hermeneutic will do. That means a consistent, literal, plain, & normal interprative method must be used - even in prophecy. The rule of sense is very important as well (if plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense). The other fundamental issue is a Church Israel issue. If your ecclesiology is off, then your eschatology will be as well.

You have to determine if the word "first" is emphasizing chronology or importance. If chronology, then you might have a point were it not for the fact that this could still refer to the end of the Trib where saved and unsaved are being seperated. I think Christ talked about that later didn't He (Matt. 24-25). That does not have to refer to the Rapture. Plus this parable is about the Kingdom of the heavens (messianic Jewish Kingdom). This is not teaching a Church truth like the Rapture.

Plus the order of the harvest is reversed in the dragnet parable - vss. 47-50. So I wouldn't emphasize the order to be of extreme importance. The "first" is probably more in line with the parable itself than the meaning of the parable. In the harvest, you would have to take out the bad to get to reap the good. We don't want to make the parable walk on all fours. That is not the purpose of a parable.

I agree w/ Jim about leaving the Rapture out of Matthew. I would go a step further and say leave the Church out of Matt. 24-25.

Just to clarify, I am a strict/refined Dispo. I take a hard line between the Church and Israel. That in mind, lets leave the Church out of the Trib program that is for Israel (Time of Jacob's trouble). God has never worked with 2 programs at the same time. Why would He start? Plus, the Church is promised deliverance from the Trib in 1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9. Also, the chronology in 1 Thess. 4 & 5 puts the Rapture before the Trib. Seems basic to me. Even the differences of the 2nd Coming and the Rapture argue for a pretrib rapio. Rapture is in the air whereas the 2nd Coming takes place on earth. Judgment is associated with the 2nd Coming but not so for the Rapture. Glorified bodies recieved at Rapture but physical bodies of the saved entere to repopulate the earth. In fact, how does the posttrib view account for the repopulation of the earth? If all believers are raptured and given glorified body, there is no more procreation. But there has to be procreation since Satan is going to decieve a lot of people at the end of the MK. While Satan was bound, the sin nature was not. Thus the progeny of the saved that enter the MK are born into sin and eventually you have a generation that rebels.

I guess the biggest problem w/ a posttrib view is John 14:1-3. There we are told that we are going to the Father's house. If the Rapture is posttrib, that would have to refer to the MK, but that is on earth whereas the Father's house is in heaven. Thus this has to be before the Trib.

Just some random thoughts.

This post was last modified: Tue Apr 08, 2008 04:17 PM by Greektim.