OK Jim

I am a millenialist. I am an historicst, believing that the book of Revelation is the history of the Church written in advance. It is symbolic, as the Lord Jesus says he sent and signified the book. Signified, means shown by signs. The fisrt part, the letters have I believe a possible 2 fold interpretation. They referred to the churches they were written to, they are prophetic regarding sucsessive periods of the church. Chapter 1: 19 would be my reference for this. "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" In chapter 4, the book moves to the completely historical part with verse 1 Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

It would take too long to bring the compleete historicist view but I will just mention a few.

Chapter 10 refers to the Reformation, Luther was always shown with a book in his hand. Not that I blieve that this necessarily refers to Luther but to the reformation. Immediately after Luther preached the Word, the Pope responded with his Bull, which Luther at first took to be from God's vicar, but eventually he realised that he was wrong and burnt the Papal Bull, publishing a tract "Against the execrable Bull of Anticrhist"
In the Revelation John often takes the part of the Church, and here he does, "4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." Luther eventually ignored the seven papal thunders, and excommunicated the Pope. and the RC church This fulfilled the prohecy in chapter 11, where John is told to cast out the outer court.

After the reformation, the reformers looked back at recent history. They saw the true Christians witnessing through the middle ages, as the two witnesses. They were clothed in sackcloth, that is to say sorrow and persecution. The figure two representing the Church when at its lowest numbe, two being the minimum number of legal witnesses. Then at the end of the 15th century, the church was practically wiped ot. The Hussites sent ambassadors around Europe to finad any other believers, but they could find none, The Waldensians had accepted the Mass once a year, the Albis were gone, the Cathars and Bogomils also. Eventually even the Bohemian Hussites were sileced. In May 1514 a challenge went out all over Europe, summoning anyone who refused to obey the pope to say so. No one answered. The witnesses were dead.

As a result congratulations were made to the pope and council, banquets were held, further laws were passed against "heresy" including one forbidding the burial of a "heretic's" body. See Rev 11: 8-10. It was thought "Heresy" was gone forever. The bodies laid on the street of the Megatropolis, the Greek name for Rome. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem, but inside the Roman Empire. Rome is that City, not only on the Tiber, but the whole Empire and civilisation.

From 1512 to 1517 a Lateran council was held with deputies from all over the Catholic World. These are the representatives of the people in verse 9. On the witnesses death, the council exchanged presents. The Portuguese envoy gave the pope magnificent Eastern presents, which Leo responded with an even more magnificent gift to the King of Portugal, not only the golden rose, a subject of envy amongst princes, but the sovereighnto of half the Eastern World. Merry Making was also fulfilled. The splendour of dinners and fetes given by the cardinals on the triumphant end to the council was unequalled since the days of Pagan Rome.

When Luther nailed his thesis to the door, 31 Oct 1517 the reformation began. This was the resurrection of the witnesses. The Spirit of God entered them and they stood up. Great fear fell on those who saw them. The pope and bishops had been tormented by the witnesses during the middle ages. The pope said “The heretics have come alive in Luther.

I find it very ironic that you can in one breath accuse me with an invocation like, “Those are your words Jim”, and “If what you say is from the Bible, why do you keep saying things that the Bible doesn't?”, then in the very next, start explaining the Reformation, like it is mentioned anywhere in the bible.

Anyhow, you said:

If you are referring to the specific signs as prophecied, I can understand, but these signs I am standing against are signs that are not prophesyed in God's Word.

I agree that most of the parts of Revelation are symbolic, what I do disagree with, is anyone at all trying to compare anything after Chapter 3 to today’s times and drawing conclusions from it.

To only reference the book of Revelation without reading first all the other books on biblical prophecy, e.g. Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Matthew, Luke, 1 Cor., 1&2 Thess., etc., I feel is fallacy.

To completely ignore these prophetic books is dangerous. I would even go so far as to state that if any one thing dictated another, it would be that a thorough explanation of the O.T. and N.T. should need to be understood before delving into the book of Revelation. It is an extremely difficult book to understand, and was only a vision to Paul. Certainly not to lessen its importance, but I say to anyone to be careful when doing so.

The biggest problem with people reading the book of Revelation is their tendency to seek after signs and correlate them to present situations. The Lord already warned us about seeking after signs:

And this is not specifically referring to the Jews as the sentence would have started with “This evil and adulterous….” This is an admonition to all.

So many people have taken the book of Revelation and studied it at the sacrifice of studying other books. I try to tell people to study thoroughly the rest of the bible, and then if felt led by the Holy Spirit, to then read the book of Revelation. I feel this is a wise approach to this book.

This book can be very easily explained and compared to just about any occurrence that has happened in the past 2000 years by just about anyone that can read and have a good imagination. I am not saying you have done this David, but the statistics of how many people actually have is enormous.


This is a small example of to what I am referring:

I would not be so ready to make such a proclamation like this. Reason being that before this can happen, all of the seal judgments have to occur, and I would really like to hear that explanation.

In my estimation and little study, I feel the first three chapters of Revelation are almost complete as describing the history and present times of the church.

The rest is yet to come.

The one thing that I also believe supports this, is the fact that the seventieth week of Daniel will only last 7 years and all of these things (everything after chapter 3 in Revelation) will occur during that time. I also do not think it is coincidental that during these 7 years there are going to be 7 vial judgments, 7 trumpet judgments, and 7 seal judgments. The Lord uses the number 7 often, doesn't he?

You see, you have to understand that the 70 weeks of Daniel, in a nutshell, spells out the entirety of the future from the point of the “going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” until the Second Coming of Christ.

You cannot say that all prophecy concerning end-times throughout the old and new Testament are symbolic, that is just not so. It is very traceable and is recorded very accurately in God’s Word, with the exception of the date of the Second Coming, which we are told that we are not to know the time.

Love in Christ,

Jim

However much I try Jim, I cannot see your interpretaion of the 70 weeks as being correct. The 70 weeks were a unit and expired with the
Messiah, when he was announced by the Father. Luke 2:22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The annointing of the Lord Jesus was the annointing ot the Most Holy, . He confirmed this when he said "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." See also Luke 4: 34 where Jesus is called the Holy One of God.

If you study the historical teaching you will find that the events flow one after the other. No I will not give piecemeal interpretaions, it is too big a subject for a thread like this. If you can obtain Elliotts Horae Apocalyptica it will give the best teaching on the subject. (You'd pobably have to obtain it from a library.) In the last of four volumes, Elliott gives an history of apocalyptic interpretation, and na refutation of various other schemes. He refutes two different futurist schemes, but I don't think PTRism is one of them as it was fairly new then (My copy is 2nd edition 1846, but I lost the 4th volume about 20 years ago.)

I would like to ask you something.

31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There were two PTRist in our church who had completely different interpretations of the above passage. Can you tell me what you think it means?

Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I have heard people preach on the above, and say that the dead great and small did not include Christians. However the book of life is opened which would to me suggest that believers are here as I can see no other reason to open the book of life. I asked one preacher about this, and he said that is what I’ve always been taught. I replied that is what I had been taught, but I wasn’t sure it was right..

David cloud has written that the Church is nowhere mentioned in the OT. I do not know if you agree with him? There are several places in particular that I think it is. In Daniel
Da 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Da 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Da 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Dan 12:1 can only refer to believers.

Love in Christ

PS I made a bit of a mess of that but I thingk it is all there now.

I disagree. If it were that Daniel 9:24 were in chronological prophetical order, you may have a case, but not only is it not, but I would further have to ask when you think the others occurred:

a) finish the transgression
b) make an end of sins
c) make reconciliation for iniquity
d) bring in everlasting righteousness
e) seal up the vision and prophecy

I have no desire to read any other commentary than the bible, which is a good commentary in and of itself. I am extremely careful of what other books I read, especially ones claiming prophetic clarity.

The seventy weeks in the way I believe I have explained it, not only coincides quite closely with what I have asserted, it makes good rational sense.

The seventy weeks have nothing to do with you or me brother, the seventy weeks are specifically for the seed of Jacob and Jerusalem. Remember what it says?:

The Bride of Christ nothing to do with Dan. 9:24-27.

The 69 weeks completed the “cutting off of Messiah”. The 70th week cannot begin until that wicked(the anti-christ) is revealed.

My question to you is that if you all believe that the anti-christ is the pope, or was the pope, or whatever, then when did it happen? When was he revealed? He wasn’t plain and simple.

The power of the Holy Spirit, in the Bride of Christ, must be removed (…he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.) then the anti-christ will be revealed.

The argument that anyone can identify the anti-christ is spiritualism at best, and holds no biblical support.

Also, if you believe the 70 weeks to have ended, then we would already be in the millennium age, and we most certainly are not.

Matthew 25 is a description of the time of the millennial kingdom. The kingdom of heaven are the saved here on earth during that time. Your quoted verses above describe the Great White Throne judgment after the millennial age. This all occurs after the rapture, after the 70th week, and yes, after the battle of Armageddon, and after the beast and false prophet are cast in to the Lake of Fire. Satan will be loosed during this time into the millennial kingdom on earth, which is what will cause the inhabitants to continue to sin against God and be judged at the Great white throne judgment.

What does this have anything to do with our discussion on the rapture?


Love in Christ,

Jim

I just couldn't help myself.......


If the rapture is not true, then what is this "mystery" Paul speaks of?

I will state unequivocally that any time you see the word "mystery" in the New Testament, it means that it was not revealed whatsoever in the Old Testament.

This being known, how can the rapture and the second coming be the same thing when the second coming is revealed in Isaiah 66:18; Daniel 12; Zech 14, etc.

So if references to the second coming is mentioned so many times in the OT, then how could it be a "mystery". It couldn't.

The rapture is true gentlemen, any way anyone slices it.

Love in Christ,

Jim

The reality of the "rapture" is not in question. I don't know of ANY Bible-studying-&-believing person who does not agree that the people of God (I prefer to use the term "church", heh-heh) is/are going to be gathered together to be with the LORD in heaven. The 64 cent question/argument is, WHEN?

Could you explain your view on the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13? The crucial part for me is verse 30:

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." (emphasis mine)

Since we both believe that every single word in the Scriptures is there for a specific purpose, and the Jesus was never casual with His word pictures, doesn't it stand to reason (Diolectic not included) that the word "first" has significant importance in the order of events during the harvest?

The rapture and Trinity are unquestionable Biblical truths. They are not found named in word, but seen through scriptural truth.
Many do not understand that the rapture and the second advent are two different events.
Also some believe that the "tribulation' was associated with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. This is an error! Most cults follow that line of thinking!

Dealing with the "rapture"
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 (Caught up)
The Lord will descend...Not touch the ground (The second coming He will touch the earth)
Verse 17 "to meet the Lord in the air" ( Caught up)
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
I'm watching. I'm waiting, not wondering if he is coming back! What a blessed hope!

The tribulation is the wrath of God on wicked man.

I Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the groom, and the Church is the bride....What bridegroom will permit his bride to go through tribulation?

Matthew 25:1-13 the ten virgins ( Did he not take the wise and leave the foolish)
Be wise be ready for he is soon coming back!

John 14:1-6 He is preparing a place for us (THE SAVED)
He will return! He keeps his promises!

Jim Norman

This post was last modified: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:49 PM by NCUNIT33.

Some random thoughts:
Does not every Christian go through tribulation?
Just because a cult believes something does not make that doctrine error.
We should never say that Jesus is coming soon. His return is eminent!
Bro. Norman, you are invited to answer the question about the tares.

I am still a long way from finding out many of the answers myself, but some of the pre-trib views just don't line up to me. I am going to keep watching and praying and working. And I won't complain one bit, if my pre-trib brethren were 100% right!

Just in case some of the "tribulation" period events start happening and we're still here, some of you might want to work on an explanation for the rest of us. (I'M JOKING!)

Would you like to prove it from the sciptures?

Almost all of the charismatic cults are pretriulationists. Incidentally, I do not believe that the tribulation referrred to the fall of Jerusalem.

Where does it say that the Lord will stop before he reaches the ground? It doesn't.

He is returning, we are meeting him, just as if I meet a visitor at the station and return with me.

Hi Brother Tim.

My main thought on this is that the type of tribulation Christians go through is because we are Christians. I think that Jesus is alluding to this in John 15:18-25. The tribulation talked about in Revelation is something else, namely God's judgement on an unbelieving world. This is one reason why I believe that the rapture occurs before this Great Tribulation.

After extensive study when I was a student, I went with the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoints.

The one question I have is with Matthew 24:36-53. Is this talking about the Rapture? If so, it would seem to place the Rapture at the end of the tribulation, not preceding it. On the other hand, if it is not referring to the Rapture, what is it referring to?

Any thoughts welcome.

Brother Yagudin,
How is the tribulation of Revelation different? Compare Rev 1:9, 2:9-10, 2:22, and 7:14. Seems to me that 4 out of the 5 are addressing believers. (By the way, don't capitalize that which the Scriptures do not. "great tribulation" not "Great Tribulation", also no "The". See Matt. 24:21, Rev 2:22, 7:14)

As to Matthew 24, which ones are the "taken" ones and which ones are the "left" ones? We are not told. Silence in the Scriptures is very important.

Matthew 24 is probably one of the most challenging areas for pre-trib'ers (as well as the rest of us!) Some illumination (or maybe more puzzlement) comes when you match up the Mark 13 and Luke 21 passages.

"Even so, come Lord Jesus."

Brother Tim,

The ones taken are the redeemed, the ones left are those who are lost.
The ones taken...Where? I Thessalonians 4:13-18 Caught up...Must be taken up....Where? Verse 17 In the clouds to be with Jesus!

He will not let his bride go through the tribulation of those days.
I Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Saved from wrath John3:36
Enoch was translated Genesis 5:24 "he was not; for God took him."
Elijah II Kings 2:11
Both of these men are types of saints taken up (RAPTURED)

The day of Christ is when Jesus comes for his bride (Marriage supper)
The day of the Lord is a day of vengeance and judgement (Tribulation)

Acts 1:11 He will return in the clouds.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

As my brother elated to earlier the tares will be gather for the fire (type of the lake of fire)....He said gather the wheat for the barn (type of heaven) Matthew 13:24-30
Notice he did not pull them up together. He allowed them to grow and mature...He is not willing that any should perish...he is long suffering...But he is holy!

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Some reject the Millennium reign, but it is still true! Be ready...Be born again!

Jim Norman

Hi,

I haven't taken the time (nor do I have the time!) to read all the posts on this thread, but want to offer a bit of information. There are two very good textbooks on this subject that will answer many of the listed questions: i.e. Matt 24, Daniel's 70th week, Jacob's trouble, etc.
1) The Bible Believer's Guide to Dispensationalism, by Pastor David Walker, Calvary Baptist Church, in Monticello, Florida.
2) One Book Rightly Divided, by Evangelist Doug Stauffer, McCowen Mills Publishers, Millbrook, Alabama.

I, too, had many questions and wanted to learn the truth of God, from The Book, and studied much, prayed over it, and had it settled by the Holy Spirit. These two books are great tools in that venue. Hope this helps.
God Bless,
Mongol Servant

I suggest everyone who wishes to join this conversation, and many who have posted on it since it's inception, go back an reread it. I think many of the questions asked here have already been answered.

One thing i am glad for is that most, if not all, at the very least undertstand that the rapure of the bride of Christ is an imminent event.

Matt 24 and 25 like I have said so many times earlier, are misinterpreted by so many people.

Love in CHrist,

Jim

Again, I highly recommend everyone to purchase the book entitled "God's prophetic blueprint" by Dr. Bob Shelton.

I believe him to be one of the foremost authorites on biblical end times out there.

He does not stop at the particular subject of rapture or such, but explains fully the timeline of events in a rational way.

Most people seem to be hung up on being able to give an exact interpretation of the timline either with a historicist viewpoint, which is the most error-filled eschatological pre-millenialist viewpoint in my opinion, or with the revelational issues.

I think the entire eschatological view can be understood in it's context if studied with an understanding that the only thing that can NEVER be timed is the rapture.

The issue of the rapture and it's timing is the second key to understanding Eschatology in it's true context. The first key is fully understanding that spiritual Israel and the seed of Jacob (physical Israel) are two completly different entities.

God is not through with the seed of Jacob and his covenenant yet. That is the ONLY reason for the 70th week, it has nothing to do with Christians today.

Love in Christ,

Jim