If Pentecostals are in error what was Acts 2 all about? - Printable Version
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Tongues - sailorjerry - Wed Jun 14, 2006 05:53 PM
Hey Jim and George. It's good to see you both still on here fighting the good fight.
I must add my two cents worth though (because that's all I can really afford). I read one fella say he speaks in tongues-unknown utterances-between himself and God. This violates Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:22 states that "...tongues are for a sign, not to them tht believe...", sounds like tongues were not ever meant for the Christian to enjoy alone. Of course, if this is not Gods perfect Word, how do we know if this or any other Scripture is actually Gods Word?
Verse 23 is also rather enlightening, if most or all of the church is speaking in tongues, then people coming in will think you (the congreation) are mad. Would you want to be part of something the Apostle Paul calls mad?
The verse before verse 22 sheds some light on this also. God will speak with men of oter tongues and lips to this people...what people was God talking about? What people has God always talked to that would not listen to Him? I could make a very convincing argument (using Scripture from a Book that I believe is Gods perfect, inspired, preserved Word) that tongues were only to be used in the presence of Jews. "Tongues are for a sign..." "the Jews require a sign...".
Well, that's my two cents worth. I would say though, if you can't agree with the message, you might want to seek another messenger.
- George - Wed Jun 14, 2006 07:23 PM
Brother Jerry, it is certainly good to see you here again. I seem to be in the minority among pentecostals, presbyterians and others. Someone has to carry on the fight for God's Word. My goodness, I have even been accused of self-righteousness. As you are well aware from our previous contacts and exchanges that could not be farther from the truth.
Keep in touch brother!
- Jim - Thu Jun 15, 2006 02:44 PM
You know George, it is very often christians cannot differentiate accusing someone of being "self-righteous" because they do not agree with their views, or because they agree with God's Word without wavering.
It is amazing how many times we are accused of being "arrogant" or "self-righteous", because we unwaveringly stand on the Word of God.
That is not the definition of self-righteousness. Being self-righteous is when we make a stand on something that is NOT according to God's Word, NOT because we disagree with someones elses self-righteousness!
You're one of the last persons I would consider "self-righteous".
Just some thoughts,
Love in Christ,
- Jim - Thu Jun 15, 2006 06:13 PM
It also seems that people just don't care about a site's statement of faith. This is number 15 on ours:
Quote:15.We believe that the healing and tongues movement of today is unscriptural and contrary to sound doctrine, and those who believe and practice these are in error.
Love in Christ,
- Pastor Wally - Thu Jun 15, 2006 06:42 PM
15.We believe that the healing and tongues movement of today is unscriptural and contrary to sound doctrine, and those who believe and practice these are in error.
This is what you believe, but do you require everyone that participates on this site to believe the same?
- Davo - Thu Jun 15, 2006 06:45 PM
I have before me a book with the lengthy title of
"The MODERN CLAIMS to the Possession of the Extraordinary GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT Stated and Examined and Compared With The Most Remarkable Cases Of A Similar Kind That Have Occurred In The Christian Church With Some General Observations On The Subject,"
by Rev. William Goode, A.M. (2nd edition) 1834 (Goode?s Modern Claims for short)
Goode?s chapter headings are.
I. The nature of the alleged gifts.
II. The testimony of Scripture and the best writers respecting such gifts.
III. The case of the Montanists
IV. Various similar cases since the Montanists.
V. General observations on the whole subject
APPENDIX. On the heresy with which the claims are connected. (This is on the human nature of our Lord. I have heard modern pentecostals air similar views, such as "Jesus did not perform miracles because he was the Son of God, but because he was a man filled with the Holy Spirit." The implication is that if we are filled with the Holy Spirit we can do the same.)
I append a few quotes from Goode. (Scanned, so may contain typos)
THERE is in the mind of man a natural love of what is marvellous. To witness, therefore, an extraordinary display of divine power, and still more, to be an instrument in the exhibition of it, are matters in which the natural feelings of every man find delight apart from any consideration of the ends and purposes of the manifestation. Moreover, to be an agent in such a work, is an office so flattering to the pride of man, tending to lead even an apostle to be " ex-alted above measure," that ambition alone is sufficient to induce any man to desire it, especially where the idea has been conceived that it is a proper object of desire. There are many reasons, therefore, arguing only from what we know of the human mind, to induce us to regard with very considerable caution, and investigate very narrowly, the claims of those who profess to be endowed with the extra-ordinary gifts of the Spirit. .Preface p. iii.
The common ecclesiastical historians have, in general, naturally, though perhaps not wisely, drawn a veil over such scenes, so that when such pretensions spring up in the Church, they appear to the great body of its members as something new and extraordinary. If accompanied with but the usual degree of plausibility which commonly cha-racterizes them, they present to those who are not fully aware how continually such things have occurred in the Church, difficulties which they are not, and cannot he ex-pected to be, altogether prepared to meet.
But when we turn to facts, and ascertain that such cases have been constantly occurring in the Church, and con-fessedly due, if not to satanic power, yet certainly to no-thing more than human enthusiasm, or excitement, under satanic influence, the charm is dissolved, the only evidences upon which the delusion stands at once dissipated, and we are able to estimate it at its real value. He who knows how often, and how perfectly, Satan has acted his part, as an angel of light, in producing such delusions, will want nothing further to prepare him for their recurrence, with all the plausibility with which the subtile ingenuity and supernatural power of the great enemy can invest them.
The object is this. This case is attended with circumstances which appear to many of a very extraordinary nature, such as they suppose could be produced only by the power of God, and which thus generate in them a belief that persons exhibiting such signs must be divinely-commissioned. Now if all the evi-dences of this kind with which it is accompanied can be proved to have attended cases of known delusion, this ground is completely taken away from under it. And if we prove still further, that the characteristics attending this case are such as have usually attended cases of delusion in past times, and are not such as distinguished the prophets of Scripture, then I ask, What ground is there left upon which their claims can stand ? Hence the importance of such cases as those we have detailed in this volume. Preface pp. v, vi.
Let us hear what was the opinion of Augustine on this matter. " But what' he says, " if the devil tempt you so as to say to you, If you were a Christian you would perform miracles, as many Christians have done ? You are de-ceived by a wicked suggestion, and would tempt the Lord thy God to say to the Lord our God, If I am a Christian, and am before thine eyes, [see Ps. v. 5, and xxxi. 22,] and thou dost reckon me in the number of thy people, grant that I may do some miracle such as thy saints have often done. Thou hast tempted God, as if thou wast not a Christian, if thou couldest not do this. Many through their desires of such, things have fallen. ..... What, therefore, is to be
done, if he should thus tempt thee, Do miracles if What ought you to reply, that you may not tempt God ? What the Lord answered, 'thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.' [Matt. iv. 7.]" p. 5.
And he attributes this desire of signs and miracles to a vain curiosity, " from whence," he says, " even in religion itself God is tempted, when signs and wonders are de-manded, being desired, not for any purpose of salvation, but only for our own experience." And this view he confirms particularly, and several times, as it respects the gift of tongues. " In the primitive times," he says, " the Holy Spirit fell upon believers, and they spoke in tongues which they had not learnt, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs suitable to the time. For it was right that the Holy Spirit should be thus borne witness of in all tongues, because the gospel of God was about to travel through all tongues throughout the whole world. That testimony being given, it passed away."
And hence he gives a frequent caution upon this subject: ?thus he says,?" Let no one therefore, brethren, say, that because our Lord Jesus Christ does not do these things [i. e. miracles] now, therefore he prefers the former times of the Church to the present. For there is a passage in which the same Lord sets those who do not see, and yet be-lieve, before those who believe because they see." p. 7.
I also have a copy of a reprint by K & M Books Plas Gwyn, Trelawnyd, LL18 6DT
ISBN 0 9523041 4 7 AD 2000 under the much shorter title of "CHARISMATIC CONFUSION"
This has the added appendices :
Petecostalism and the making of the Charismatic Movement. By Dr Nick Needham.
Asusa Street: A case of Evangelical Amnesia. By Alan Howe.
The admission of a counterfeit, by Alan Howe.
There is also an introduction by Dr Nick Needham of the Highland Theological College, which includes the following:
"Why Goode's masterpiece is not more widely known is one of the unsolved mysteries of Evangelical life. As far as I am aware, the only modern author to have discerned its worth was Victor Budgen, who used it extensively in his The Charismatics and the Word of God (1989), and paid warm tribute to its high value. I would emphatically echo this verdict. If one wants to see the case for non-charismatic Christianity set forth with lucid and compelling Scriptural exegesis, coupled with a sound knowledge of Church history (especially the writings of the early Church fathers), Goode excels to the point of unsurpassed brilliance."
I bought my copy from the Christian Bookshop, Sevenoaks Road, Pratts Bottom, Orpington, Kent, BR6 7SQ, tel: 01689 854117
- Jim - Thu Jun 15, 2006 06:50 PM
I didn't say we required it, I said there are people that don't care about it, but if you had taken the time to read the very top post on this thread, you would have read:
Quote:1 ) Honor the Lord with your posts. Don't post anything that does not edify in a Godly manner. If it does not honor or glorify God, go post somewhere else. Make sure you read the statement of belief on this site, if you do not agree with it and you continue to post, prepare to have your views disputed if they are not in line with God's Word.
At this time, Ray does not require everyone to agree with the statement of faith, but I for one would have to wonder the angle behind someone coming to a site and remaining a member simply to try and refute the sites statement of faith. That seems arrogant to me. I don't go to the catholics' website and do that even though they invited me to do so. I seriously doubt I would have changed anyones mind.
Anyone is welcome to come here at any time. But if you do not agree with the statement of faith, then I recommend you find another site to go, as we will defend our faith and practice, the Word of God. And your account will be deleted if you personally attack people. Ray has the only authority to delete accounts, but I can delete posts, and no matter how much effort you put into a post, if it is in any way unagreeable to us, it will be deleted also.
Untamed Tonues!!! - Danzo121 - Thu Jun 15, 2006 06:57 PM
Jim, The problem is not that you are both adherents to a holy strict sect that keeps your strong faith anchored in the Word of God, for that I rejoice that there are those who have strong and unshakable beliefs like yourselves, no it?s nit that Jim, it is the heart attitude in which you feel justified to respond when ever anyone dares to fail your high code of ethics or falls short of your interpretation of Scripture. A little kindness and consideration would demonstrate that you are mature and loving, as of course you are indeed to your own, but let that fragrance of the love of Christ fill the nostrils of those who come inquiring and who may hold contrary views. No one is asking you to compromise what you believe, nor are they asking you to water down such an absolute truth as the glorious Word of God when responding to correct or admonish even such an one as myself for my own views, but it can be done so as to show that you have an abundance of the fruit of the Spirit manifested in your lived, for a stranger will pass through one day and it may be that you will not notice that you have bitten an Angel unawares with you sharp and untamed tongues.
Jim, for example, I noticed the way you answered the dear one who was inviting you to read the Koran and instead of taking to golden opportunity to uphold the only book of life that you love, you instead screamed in anger at him, insulting Muslims, who you know need Christ so very much and that fact alone should have made you stop and tenderly consider how best to respond, so that you left a seed planted in that enquirers mind and heart, rather than spit him out and make him to go away feeling that you were nothing short of arrogant and ignorant, although that obviously isn?t true, but how else was he to know anything else, save the backlash of your sharp tongue condemning the Koran. That was very immature of you Jim and I wonder if others would agree with me, for who knows that if in Eternity you may find that same dear one seated at our Saviour?s banquette with you, and you ask him how he had come, and he would answer ? oh it was the wise and gentle words of a man of God that arrested my folly and brought me to understand clearly that the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is indeed Almighty God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, and trusting in the words of the Holy Bible that he so lovingly expounded that I am come to feast this day, for Christ alone is my Lord and Saviour?
Wouldn?t you rejoice Jim that you were so open to the Holy Spirit that you saw past your immediate hatred of anything that offends your faith or contradicts God?s Word, so as to redirect your anger through the love of Jesus, who commands us to love one another, even when we are exposing the unfruitful works of darkness!!!
- Jim - Thu Jun 15, 2006 07:32 PM
Quote:Jim, for example, I noticed the way you answered the dear one who was inviting you to read the Koran and instead of taking to golden opportunity to uphold the only book of life that you love, you instead screamed in anger at him, insulting Muslims, who you know need Christ so very much and that fact alone should have made you stop and tenderly consider how best to respond, so that you left a seed planted in that enquirers mind and heart, rather than spit him out and make him to go away feeling that you were nothing short of arrogant and ignorant, although that obviously isn?t true, but how else was he to know anything else, save the backlash of your sharp tongue condemning the Koran.
OK, I will respond to this quote with your own words to a man who is sold out to Christ, loves the Lord with all of his heart and does not compromise scripture:
Quote:You amaze me George, you talk about judging as if God made you his partner, I just hope I don?t get to stand before your throne when I get to Glory mate, as like the Elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son, I would be sent back to feed with swine!!!!
Quote:Help me out here Beloved, I really do feel out of my depth in the midst of such Bible Scholars as yourselves, who even know Greek!
Quote:Trouble is George you have such a shallow view of Pentecostal people that you ought to watch you don't get yourself carried off in a flaming chariot, for I have not met a man as righteous as you since I read about Enoch!!!
Now who is being a hypocrite?
I stand warning people of the fallacies of this world and against the doctrine that satisfies the itching ears of this deaf generation, and I make no uncertain sound. You call it harsh, that is exactly what it is, I make no bones about it. But....I doshow God's love. With every warning I give out of my mouth, I show God's love. My choice in words is for a warning to those who desire not the Lord. I love dearly everyone who loves our Lord and Saviour according to His written Word.
My words are towards those religions that canker and fester against the Word of God. I certainly do have harsh words against the realm of Satan and his minions.
Jesus Himself said:
My harsh words are not to any one person(s) specifically, that is there difference here, but would you have stood there and berated Jesus for His choice of words?
Love in Christ,
Love one another. - Danzo121 - Thu Jun 15, 2006 08:02 PM
My answer Jim is simply ?no? but Bro we are in the 21st century, and yes it is right to cut to the quick and give no place to the devil when rebuking and admonishing those who bring falsehood, or to chastise the wishy-washy Christian chocolate soldier, when he refuses to pull the plough (Remember CT Studd) but you must admit that it is possible to do it so as to leave a hand of hope stretched out, so that the poor confused beggar may return and seek shelter under your wings.
I am drawn to your forum Jim because I am certain in my heart that here are those who are unshakable and solid in the truth (Like Davo) and although myself a Pentecostal believer, I do not feel uncomfortable among you, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day, words I have sung often with great joy.
So for me tongues are not an issue, neither prophesies, as none of these things will last but His Word in my heart will remain alive forevermore and I do sincerely long to bear fruit while I am here alive for the Glory of God.
So am I your Brother in Christ because I happen to believe differently? Or am I to be cast aside as a heretic because I enjoy joyful happy praise songs that cause me to skip like a child in the presence of my wonderful Saviour?
Love in Jesus
- Pastor Wally - Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:02 PM
Amen to that, Dan. And thank you again.
Love in Christ,
- Jim - Fri Jun 16, 2006 08:29 AM
Aah, it is so very often that when a person tries to rebuke someone else over the same fault he is in, he changes his tune so quickly. I see you do not want to broach the subject about your words sir?
It is you that has cast the first aspersion upon my character for having "screamed in anger at him, insulting Muslims", even if that is your perception upon the matter.
It is also expected that Pastor Wally must also resort to agreeing with your "opinion" with such support, seeing as I have somehow offended his pride and he is rather waiting for opportunities to get back at me. That seems to be his common purpose on this board.
Quote:but you must admit that it is possible to do it so as to leave a hand of hope stretched out, so that the poor confused beggar may return and seek shelter under your wings.
These are typical words coming from so many who have not taken the time to read the rest of the boards. If you had, you would see how often I cry for meekness and humbleness of spirit when correcting a brother, and how often I show love to many, and also how often I rebuke properly. I am not saying that I am perfect, so don't start that either. I am solely under the sovereign grace of my Saviour Jesus Christ, and thereby I stand only.
Of course though, like I said, neither of you would take the time to read those things, so your motives have already been revealed.
Too often it has been decried "leave a hand of hope stretched out, so that the poor confused beggar may return and seek shelter under your wings.", as the person decrying it preaches their fallacy and feel-good tactic that will inevitably lead that poor soul straight down the selfish path to eternal damnation.
This is the typical conversation of one who is so entwined with the problems of worshipping in spirit but not in truth, that I weep for the recipients of this so-called "gospel".
Quote:I do not feel uncomfortable among you, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day, words I have sung often with great joy.
Since obviously you and "Wally" believe in speaking in tongues, then let me put it to you this way:
If you admit, and we give scriptural support to the fact that the tongues that are going on in your church are NOT OF GOD, then where do you think those tongues are coming from? I'll tell you, it is either:
1) They are a false make-up from one who simply desires exaltation and esteeming of self
2) They are given of Satan
Either way my brother, they are NOT of God! Knowing this, then you are disobeying God by worshipping with these people!
Quote:1 John 4:1
OK, so knowing this, how can we fellowship with you when we have admonished you on your position of speaking in tongues and you do not repent on your position? For the bible says:
We follow God's Word, not our own arrogance and pompous pride. Yes, we are human and it gets in the way, but I am ready to repent on my knees at night as the Holy Spirit convicts my heart in anguish over things I have done against Him. I do not answer to man, I answer to a Holy God who never changes. So therefore on the scriptures of the Word of God I stand.
Love in Christ,
- George - Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:01 AM
Very well said brother Jim. On Christ the solid rock I stand, ALL other ground is sinking sand. Look at the following:
Quote:(1 Peter 4:11) If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
If ANY man speak let him speak as the oracles of God. Not of himself or some false doctrine which is directly contrary to scripture. What then is an oracle of God?
Oracle in this case means "an utterance of God.' Let him speak as if it is God u ttering the words and not himself. God does not utter false doctrine.
Mention has been made here of my method or indeed my own "interpretation" of the Bible. I do not interpret the Bible. I do my very best to understand God's Holy Word. There is quite a difference. Unfortuantely we have some here who want to interpret the Scriptures in their own manner again denying the admonition of God in His Holy Word.
Quote:(2 Peter 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
God say right there that the Bible is not open to any private interpretation. None of it.
- Jim - Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:23 AM
Amen to that George,
And a little to add:
Love in Christ,
- chev1958 - Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:58 AM
I've already warned my church that if anyone starts speaking in tongues that I, as pastor, will be the interpreter. And, using my prophecy gifts, I've already told the congregation what that interpretation will be: "I (the tongues speaker) pledge $10,000 to the building fund!"
Funny, we haven't had anyone speak in tongues yet.