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If Pentecostals are in error what was Acts 2 all about? - Danzo121 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 07:48 PM
Dearest Brethren
I have been involved in some form of Pentecostal Church for over thirty years and although I do not pay homage to the denomination as such, I do happen to believe that God wants His people to be a people of power and not powerless to touch and bless those around us. Acts two is a magnificent testimony that should inspire us.
I was brought to the Lord through the witness of a dear Plymouth Brethren Brother who I had worked with in the building industry for a couple of years. I was a Roman Catholic at that time until I was 24 years old when I became converted, being that my Mother was Spanish and naturally I knew nothing about the Gospel of Grace, until this dear faithful servant of God witnessed to me day by day, sometimes way up high on a roof as we mended the slates, pointing down to the ground maybe fifty feet down, asking the question, ?do you know for certain whether you will be going to Heaven if you were to fall? My answer was always? No, because on the strength of things, the bad things I had done far outweighed the good things I had ever done, so it?s definitely hell for me?
I guess I should have joined the brethren when I got saved, as I always held to their doctrine no matter what, especially in regards to salvation and the end days doctrine but instead I joined a Pentecostal mission in the village, and although most folk spoke in tongues and prophesied, I felt always that God had spoken his last and final prophesy by means of His Holy Word and although I often felt moved to bring a word of encouragement or exhortation, it was always to point my Brethren back to the Word of God, to encourage them to appropriate the wonderful promises of God.
I know some will criticise me for wanting to belong to a Pentecostal Fellowship and I can only reply " What did our dear Lord leave Acts two in the book for, if we are not to emulate the work and ministry of Christ in our lives? I suppose in my foolishness I reckoned that that great message therein was not for another group (As some imagine) but for me personally, confused by people (Cults) like the Jehovah's Witnesses who think that those great and rich promises spoken by our precious Saviour are certainly not for the ordinary Guy in the street like me, but for an elect order?? Spiffle??
Well I reckon that's stupid anyhow, for my Bible is my Father's love message to me and if He wanted me just keep on guessing as to whether He was going to supply me with the power to witness to others or the wonder and joy of abiding in His presence, then maybe somehow I got someone else?s book instead!!!!
My Pentecostal belief stems from the need to have power to live and hope and know God in all the circumstances of my life, after many years of personal tragedy, having been three years in a young offenders prison and losing my own dear Mum and suffering heart attacks and a bypass operation and on and on it goes. I reckon God would want me to be able to impart something of that joy of knowing that the Lord is my Shepherd to others, demonstrating that Jesus is not just another mystic or religious leader but a wonderful wonderful Saviour and Deliverer as well as a glorious friend and healer Praise His name.
Being Pentecostal to me means to be able through the power of the Holy Ghost to have constant access to God?s power indwelling in me, to touch people with His power and love, not to be anything great necessarily, but to prove without any shadow of doubt that God's power is invested in this vessel of clay and though I fail Him often I would not exchange my beliefs for what I have seen around me, with those who have great doctrine but no power to make any difference in this evil world.
May the Lord richly bless and comfort all those who love His name. Amen.
Ever yours in Christ
Dan Carlton. Danzo121
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dcarlton121
[img][/img]
- George - Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:09 AM
Just as a short response as I am getting ready to go to Church, I believe the key to understanding what Acts 2 is all about is the word, "tongues." Let me give you Acts 4 with the Strong's number attached:
Quote:(Acts 2:4) And2532 they were all537 filled4130 with the Holy40 Ghost,4151 and2532 began756 to speak2980 with other2087 tongues,1100 as2531 the3588 Spirit4151 gave1325 them846 utterance.669
Then here is the definition of the word "tongues" as given in Strong's Greek Lexicon.
Quote:G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.
Pay particular attention to the fact that the word "tongues" here means languages. The languages they spoke in are detailed farther on in Acts 2. It starts in 2:11. The men did NOT speak in some unknown gibberish as practiced in most of the Pentecostal Churches today.
It is wise to go through and read 1 Corinthians 14 with a good dictionary such as the Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary or a Strong's Greek Lexicon.
As to the filling of the Holy Spirit, it happens at the time of Salvation. No where in the Bible does it tell us to seek the Holy Spirit. He dwells in us. What we have to perfect is getting out of our own way so that the power of the Holy Spirit can work within us.
Quote:(Acts 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
We don't have to seek the power of the Holy Spirit. It is within us. It is given us freely. All we have to do is pay attention to it. It seems at times my favorite hobby is arguing with the Holy Spirit. His presence is great within me but I often do not pay attention to His prompts. Of coures I never win one of those arguments but I don't seem to learn either.
In Christ,
George
- Jim - Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:20 AM
Not to offend, but I am at a loss as how that any association can be made between a chapter in the bible and a denomination based on that chapter.
This is seems to me to be a lack of properly dividing the word as commanded(2 Tim. 2:15)
I also see no association with Acts chapter 2 and the pentacostal holiness church.
Acts chapter 2 was the institution of the church and the beginning of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within individuals.
Love in Christ,
Jim
So are Pentecostal Christians saved? - Danzo121 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 05:29 PM
Dearest Beloved Brethren
Thank you Brothers for your swift response to my short note. I am at a loss to answer intelligently, or magnify my argument in your seemingly more than adequate knowledge of the Word, and without wishing to seem ignorant and disrespectful to those who know better than I do, I simply desired to emphasise the connection between the early Church and the (Biblical) Pentecostal Church of today by making a very beautiful parallel with the mighty work of the Holy Ghost in the lives of many ordinary Believers way back in the first century, and I have foolishly but obviously (according to your higher knowledge) made a great mistake in my evaluation in comparing the Pentecostal Church with Act 2 but nevertheless I stand on my simple belief where my KJV Bible tells me that I can have what ?they? had and forgive me for adding further beloved, that I can do what ?they? can do, so long as I have what ?they? had...The Holy Ghost who indwells my new creation in Christ, born again through the magnificent Redemption of my Saviour, having first been filled with a strong revelation of my own personal wretchedness and need of a Saviour and been found in deep remorse for the sinful things I have done that have violated my God?s Holy laws and commandments, and accepting by faith alone in Christ alone all that Jesus provided for me at Calvary, to wash away my sins and grant my undeserved soul peace with God through my Lord Jesus Christ, to grant me the unspeakable joy of confessing Him (Jesus Christ) before men and bringing the sacrifice of praise from my eternally grateful heart, that was once black with sin but is now washed from an evil conscience that once obeyed my own lust but now longs to obey my Heavenly Father and to do His pre-ordained will for my life. Bless His Holy name.
Oh bless God beloved, am I beside myself with folly, as I boast in my God? Who calls me to reign in life: Romans 5:17 or is that beautiful promise for some other ancient people as well? Help me out here Beloved, I really do feel out of my depth in the midst of such Bible Scholars as yourselves, who even know Greek!
I do not write to offend anyone but to express my heart and faith with joy in the Lord.
Love in Jesus.
Dan Carlton. (Danzo121)
- George - Sun Jun 11, 2006 06:28 PM
Quote: but nevertheless I stand on my simple belief where my KJV Bible tells me that I can have what ?they? had and forgive me for adding further beloved, that I can do what ?they? can do, so long as I have what ?they? had...
If you have read your Bible in that way you have not read it properly. Let me give you a little insight here.
Quote:1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
There have been 18 individual Spiritual gifts identified in the Bible. God does not grant all of them to each person. Each is given gifts in accordance with God's desires for tha person. There are also four gifts which have not been granted after the First Century. One of them is speaking in tongues.
As you can see above tongues shall cease. The gift of speaking in tongues was granted to a certain few persons for a certain short time and for a certain purpose. The Bible says that when "that which is perfect is come," meaning the Bible itself, that which is in part shall be done away.
The gift of prophecy ceased with John and Revelation.
Quote:(Luke 16:16) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
As a fundamental Baptist and being in the catagory of Bible-believing and Bible-teaching, I believe the Bible to be perfect. The quote above from 1 Corinthians tells us that the recording of the Bible was complete those other things were done away with.
One of the other gifts that was done away with is the granting of signs and wonders. That now, according to Jesus is a thing of the devil.
And please do not be patronizing. It is not becoming.
In Christ,
George
And when that which is PERFECT is come! - Danzo121 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 06:28 AM
Dear George
I apologise for being patronising Brother, I have studied your response and find that here you have chosen a rather random verse to settle our difference of opinion, especially as throughout the New Testament (i.e. the Epistles) there is abundant evidence to prove that it was absolutely necessary for the Believers in Christ to exercise spiritual gifts, seeing that it was an age of great Satanic darkness, which Almighty God saw fit to shine His great light to dispel, by means of His chosen channels of blessing e.g. His Believing anointed people.
The days we live in are much darker than those days, and but for the Grace of God in waiting patiently for the harvest to be gathered, all men would have been consumed!
So as for your reference to 1 Cor 3:10 with the intention of explaining why there is no need for spiritual gifts today, I felt moved to respond by saying respectfully, that there is nothing ?perfect? save Jesus the Lord of Glory, and though I regard His KJV Holy Word as inspirationally accurate, as best as it is translated by the guidance of God via good and faithful Brethren like William Tyndale etc, that doesn?t make the book absolutely ?perfect? but as best as man is able by the wonderful guidance of God?s Holy Ghost, it is definitely all we need to instruct us in the things of God and to bring us to the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and so absolutely right in regards to (God?s) holy truth, this I accept with all my heart, having found it?s promises to be sure and steadfast, but ?perfect? is altogether another thing that is in God alone.
His written Word if appropriated will show us the way to obtain Salvation and I praise God for that very fact, but I put it to you that this ?perfect? verse you are speaking about is not in regards to the written Word itself but to the Word Himself Jesus Christ John 1:1 and His Holy Spirit, who He would send into the world to guide us into all truth, for I reckon that for those translators to have made a ?perfect? book, they would undoubtedly have needed to be very Pentecostal people indeed, if assuming by the 1500?s all gifts of the spirit had become totally unnecessary, making such amazing supernatural guidance to have been impossible by then, that is if what you are telling me is true beloved and I find it hard to accept that God would rob us so of such things as to enable us to prove His power and love in a material and physical world.
I can tell you where I stand in regards to the Bible. For thirty years I have read only the KJV and I have been a an Evangelist for many years, preaching, teaching and disciple?ing many dear folk God has given me the joy of leading to His precious Son and I would use no other book, for I regard many translations today as corrupt and apostate, including the New International Version, the Message bible, and many of the contemporary versions, that lean too close to New Age, and yet I am told by Pastors, Leader and Scholars that all these bibles are good for instruction and guidance, this I vehemently refute, confident that the KJV was the best of the best and if it was good enough for those who died to translate it for our Salvation, it is most certainly good enough for me, having seen it?s wonderful power to bring men to Christ. Hallelujah!!!
That display of passion will not impact my argument in my favour I realise George but I have nothing else to say save ?Lord grant my Brother a revelation that will demonstrate that you long to see your people endued with power from on high and to have the joy of touching those he loves and serves with more than a Hymn or a Sermon but with supernatural gifts out of God?s great treasure chest of blessing? Amen
All my love in Jesus
Dan (Danzo121)
- Jim - Mon Jun 12, 2006 07:29 AM
Quote:there is abundant evidence to prove that it was absolutely necessary for the Believers in Christ to exercise spiritual gifts, seeing that it was an age of great Satanic darkness, which Almighty God saw fit to shine His great light to dispel, by means of His chosen channels of blessing e.g. His Believing anointed people.
The days we live in are much darker than those days, and but for the Grace of God in waiting patiently for the harvest to be gathered, all men would have been consumed!
The relevancy of our own thoughts of whether or not todays days are "darker" than these of which you have spoken is a moot point. We are neither prognosticators or diviners to conclude something so debatable.
Also, your claim that it was "absolutely necessary" had the wrong reasons for the necessity. The necessity at that time was to fulfill the great commission, which was accomplished at the passing of the apostles, and we now wait, evangelize, and be a witness until He gathers the elect from the four corners of the earth to Himself.
Now do not get me wrong, I am not claiming that the church is powerless. To say such is to be a fool. What I do stand against is the unbalanced idea of people who desire such a gift, when it is not given of God, and proclaim it with no truth. This is what, I would daresay all Pentacostal Holiness and Churches of God have done. It is an unbalanced desire to have gifts of God that are not from God.
Even if your gifts were from God, who are they benefiting? Only yourselves, not anyone else. The way local churches use them today is totally radically different from the way God used them for the apostles.
You are also misquoting George when you said that he claimed that 1 Cor. 3:10 explains that there is no need for that today. That is not what he said. He was showing you that the dispensation of apostolic gifts of those specific kinds has been "done away with", not "no longer needed". Please be careful how you quote. It is God who determines what or what is not needed, not us.
The verse most folks completely leave out in their method of worship:
Quote:John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
TRUTH, the most left out part. The local churches of today are so depraved, because of this last part.
The fact is, is that people are so obsessed with the spirit part, because it "feels good" to them, they are willing to sacrifice the truth. They don't want to lose that "feeling".
It is pure selfishness. Our Lord and Saviour deserves better than that.
Love in Christ,
Jim
- George - Mon Jun 12, 2006 08:36 AM
Quote:So as for your reference to 1 Cor 3:10 with the intention of explaining why there is no need for spiritual gifts today, I felt moved to respond by saying respectfully, that there is nothing ?perfect? save Jesus the Lord of Glory,
I said nothing to indicate that Spiritual gifts are not needed today. I spoke specifically of four Spiritual gifts which the Bible says are no longer granted.
If you do not believe that the Bible is the perfect word of God, as it says it is, then there is no hope for you nor that you will be able to understand all of this. The Bible tells us over and over again that it is perfect and it is also the inspired word of God. If I did not have the perfect word of God in my hands then I might as well throw it in the trash and go out and get drunk.
Quote:(Proverbs 30:5) Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
My Bible is called the Word of God. The Proverbs tell me right here that every word in it is pure.
Quote:(2 Peter 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(2 Peter 1:21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Every word that is recorded in my King James Bible was inspired by the Holy Ghost of God.
Quote:(1 Peter 1:25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Perhaps your whole problem is that you do not believe the Bible. You have said yo udo not believe it to be perfect. That is an indication you do not accept it but rather that you choose to take parts of it you feel appropriate to your own situation and apply them as you see fit.
You ought change that attitude. It will really help you. I cannot discuss the things of the Bible with a person who does not believe it.
In Christ,
George
- George - Mon Jun 12, 2006 08:38 AM
Incidentally, I looked over my post and I made no reference to 1 Corinthians 3 anywhere. I don't know where you got that from.
In Christ,
George
Thank you Brothers for your maturity and love. - Danzo121 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 01:36 PM
My comments regarding the ?precious? Word of God were not intended to suggest that I do not know the Word of God sufficiently, on the contrary, or that I have not received freely all that it offers, for it seems you have made some amazing observations just because I said that (I presume) the Bible was translated by Godly men under the guiding hand of God and could not be infallibly ?perfect? in it?s grammatical and language changeover, only nutters like Joseph Smith can make silly claims like that, as he does with his heretical book of Mormon?
So it is with great reverence I wish you to be sure that I am not comparing the two, but those Godly servants of old, who with the very best scholastic ability of their times undertook to translate an extremely complicated Greek and Hebrew document into English, that must have been a fantastic enterprise way back then, without the aid of modern technology! Let me stress something vital here, something I had not clarified before, that I do unreservedly believe that the actual Greek and Hebrew Holy Scriptures that the Apostles wrote under the guidance and inspiration of God are utterly perfect, for as Apostles they alone would have the absolute anointing to undertake such a task and so what they had written was indeed the blue prints of God?s Word, but I believe that our wonderful irreplaceable King James Version is the very best that has been ever translated from those first blue-prints (scrolls whatever) you cannot say that about many (Or any) of the other modern versions of the Bible, including the NIV? Or can you? I don?t think so!
Of course we know that God Himself watched over His Word to enable these dear ones to accurately interpret the truth and truth it is indeed without error or misinformation and were burned for doing so.
Leaving that aside then assuming we will beg to differ in our opinions somewhat, I still want to make another matter clear regarding the gifts of the Spirit, as you seem to think I want these ?God given gifts? for the sake of having gifts for myself and that is not true, you seem to think that I could not possible believe the Word of God so that it becomes light to my path and that also is not true. I love the Word of God beloved and find no contradictions in it, or areas that lack consistent revelation and inspiration that is not consistent with itself as a whole and I do not take one part and leave another but rejoice in the one revelation of God?s perfect will for me.
I simply believe that God wants to give us more,
I will then close my letter with this final thought, for I know one thing is altogether true of the Fundamental Baptists and that is you hold the truth in trust for the next generation and God has blessed you for not swerving to the left, nor to the right as regards His Word, for this I praise God, for if men were only to get my version of events without the balance and maturity that you offer, then it would surely be a poorer generation that follows us on, but as is with my dear friend Davo, who is a member of this forum, adding many valuable contributions for discussion, with his staunch strict stand against heretics, for he knows my heart and I have spent time working with him and eating at his table here in Faversham, although his love and patience towards me is a sweet joy to behold, so I ask forgiveness if I have appeared arrogant or disrespectful in any way and I ask my Lord to forgive me if I have foolishly misunderstood something vital concerning His Word, for this I ask that you would pray that my own eyes be opened and my heart humbled.
Thank you Brothers for sharing with me.
God bless
Dan Carlton (Danzo121)
- Jim - Mon Jun 12, 2006 01:59 PM
Quote:Leaving that aside then assuming we will beg to differ in our opinions somewhat, I still want to make another matter clear regarding the gifts of the Spirit, as you seem to think I want these ?God given gifts? for the sake of having gifts for myself and that is not true, you seem to think that I could not possible believe the Word of God so that it becomes light to my path and that also is not true.
I pray that this is so. I hope that you do not "desire" these gifts aside from what God wills.
My address is to the denomination and doctrine of the Pentacostal Holiness church itself. I am greatly disturbed in spirit to think of folks speaking and uttering things that they know not what they speak. This is not the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. It defies the Word of God in all ways.
Gifts are given from God for the sole sake and purpose of glorifying Him. When people with the same gift assemble together in the same congregation for the sake of using that gift, then it is not glorifying God in the intended use fo that gift.
Quote:1 Cor. 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
12:5
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
These verses are not to be used as support for gifts today, but rather the use for which they were intended.
Also notice the repetition: diversities, differences, To another, etc.
It does not say to have the same gift assemble together. It would profit nothing.
Love in Christ,
Jim
- George - Mon Jun 12, 2006 02:18 PM
Quote: as you seem to think I want these ?God given gifts? for the sake of having gifts for myself and that is not true,
Teh reality of the situation is that if you persist on believing that the gibberish "spoken" in the Pentecostal Churches today that is referred to as speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit then you indeed do want that gift for yourself. It can serve no other purpose and is addressed in the Bible as such.
Quote:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;
It has been shown that the gift of tongues given the disciples was that of speaking various known languages. I don't even believe God understands some kind of gibberish. God designed the various languages of the world and caused men to speak them. To the best of my knowledge He did not design a language that no one else could understand and interpret as called for in the Bible.
Speaking in "tongues" as practiced in the modern Pentecostal churches is for no one else except the person who engages in such things.
In Christ,
George
Tongues - are they just twaddle? - Danzo121 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 03:50 PM
Dear Jim & George
Well I had hoped you would stay off that subject Brothers, but as you brought it up, let me tell what it is like being in a Church that reels off tongues as natural as singing!
For me it is very different though, as although I have been personally speaking in my heart to the Lord for so many years in an unknown language other than my own Mother tongue, which is Spanish incidentally, it has never been something I like to flaunt, for I feel that the tongues spoken in the Church today is probably about 97% flesh in any case, and I often die a thousand deaths when I hear the roaring coriander.. coriander.. coriander brigade.
No beloved, tongues - if there is such a thing, should be exclusively used to edify oneself before the Lord and not to expound some deep revelation, as I am sure you will agree that God?s Word is the last and final revelation of God and all the instruction, correction and direction we humans are ever going to get or need!
Maybe I?m not such a good Pentecostal after all, what do you think? As I will often sit down in protest when I hear the old gals jump to their feet to spout off some strange twaddle that no one can ever begin to interpret, and even God would have problems trying to unscramble it, (as you have said) bless His Holy name.
So tongues in my misguided estimation are for those who refuse to read, study, memorise or meditate on the Holy Scriptures, otherwise they would know immediately what God wished them to be doing, or not doing for that matter.
As for prophesy this too is greatly misused, when men and mostly the women (I call them Prophet-asses) arise to speak deep and wonderful things to the Church, but again in my misguided opinion, I reckon that God?s Word is enough and apart from standing to speak Scripture in love to the congregation, to exhort others to trust in what it says on a matter, then it might be better if men and women just shut up and let the man of God preach as the Holy Ghost leads him, to bring comfort, instruction and correction to a fickle people full of self interest, looking for someone to boost their self-esteem, as we have seen with the purpose driven ministries that have now hit Britain?s Evangelical Churches, including my own.
So that?s that Brothers, rebuke me if you will but be sure that my heart is set on the Gospel and these trivialities are never going to sway me. So pray for me please that I am covered against the spirit of this age that will deceive even the very Elect, if that be possible.
I hope that sufficiently answers your concerns for me as a Pentecostal Believer.
Love in Jesus to you both and to you who love the name of Jesus.
Dan Carlton (Danzo121)
- Jim - Mon Jun 12, 2006 05:06 PM
Quote:Well I had hoped you would stay off that subject Brothers, but as you brought it up, let me tell what it is like being in a Church that reels off tongues as natural as singing!
I am at a small loss. I kind of thought that is what the entire subject was about. If one associates the Pentacostal denomination to Acts chapter 2, the only rational subject brought to mind would be "tongues".
Quote:as although I have been personally speaking in my heart to the Lord for so many years in an unknown language
Why is this an unkown language? If your native tongue is Spanish, then you are conversing in Spanish.
Quote:for I feel that the tongues spoken in the Church today is probably about 97% flesh in any case
I would dare raise that percentage to 99.9%, if not 100%
Quote:Maybe I?m not such a good Pentecostal after all, what do you think?
I don't know, I am not one myself.
Quote:the old gals jump to their feet to spout off some strange twaddle that no one can ever begin to interpret, and even God would have problems trying to unscramble it, (as you have said) bless His Holy name.
Then why are you attending a church that has no discipline? More than that, why are you attending a church which defies the Word of God?
This seems eerily similar to Robert Mazar/Howard/Arnold Kopsho's idealogy that it is ok to attend the catholic church even though he doesnt agree with much of what they teach...
Quote:So tongues in my misguided estimation are for those who refuse to read, study, memorise or meditate on the Holy Scriptures, otherwise they would know immediately what God wished them to be doing, or not doing for that matter.
Then again, why are you attending this church?
Quote:then it might be better if men and women just shut up and let the man of God preach as the Holy Ghost leads him, to bring comfort, instruction and correction to a fickle people full of self interest, looking for someone to boost their self-esteem, as we have seen with the purpose driven ministries that have now hit Britain?s Evangelical Churches, including my own.
Yes, and my question is what is this preacher doing during all this time? Letting the congregation preach? I would stay away from this church.
Quote:So that?s that Brothers, rebuke me if you will but be sure that my heart is set on the Gospel and these trivialities are never going to sway me.
Never say "never".
If our basis for worship cannot be established by the Word of God, then our basis for worship is worthless and an abomination to the Lord. If you believe you can stay in a location that is defying the Word of God and be safe or not swayed, you are dead wrong. I learned a saying from Reformers Unanimous. In fact, I learned it from George here, and it is so true, "Little compromises lead to great disasters". As you worship in a location in which you admit is doing wrong, you are compromising your stance, and it WILL affect you.
Yes, these are harsh words, but what rather should one say when man regards God's Word as something to be employed at a whim or manipulation as this church has done?
I guess I cannot understand anyone who willfully resides in a church who is willfully defying God's Holy Word. I just don't understand it...
Love in Christ,
Jim
- Davo - Mon Jun 12, 2006 05:29 PM
I find it worrying that you will accept something which you admit is only 3% of God. Which 3% do you accept? and which 97% do you reject? And how do you tell the difference? You say correctly that God's word is enough, so why do you need prophecy?
You know that modern day tongues are not languages, and therefore not biblical. You know that modern prophecy is not biblical prophecy. You know that modrn day healings are no healings at all.
YOU KNOW. So why are you in that Church?
We are sometimes told of some amazing miracle, and that we should accept the perpetrator on that basis. But that is wrong. We should accept the works by their doctrine and not the other way round. Deut 13: 1
Quote: ? If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
You mention the Mormons. If you seek after spiritual gifts, why not join them. They have always, claimed all the gifts.
You say the gifts died out by 1500. They ceased at or soon after New Testament times. We find false claimants from AD 172. Even at the time of Luther we find them. Luther rejected them sayinG that God never sent any prophet, who was not either called by proper persons, or authorized by special miracles, not even his own Son.