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+--- Thread: Free-Will or Predestination? or both? (/thread-438.html)
- Agur - Fri Feb 03, 2006 06:49 PM
Aughavey Wrote:"Free will is ours because if I wanted to I could put my leg on my desk right now, or I don't have to"
No that is free will in YOUR mind because you THINK you chose because you cannot see the future.
If God created time, is all powerful and knows everything, he already knew whether you would or would not put your leg on the table before he created time.
If we do indeed have free will then is it not the case that God is not all powerful and it is therefore within the realms of possibility for man to become as powerful or more powerful than God, aka presumably the thinking of Lucifer?
Aughavey, I'm sorry, I'm not very good at communicating points sometimes (especialy on a keyboard!). I don't know how to express my opinion any better than I did with the parable I made up (a revision of another storey I heard when I was a kid, really)...I understand that my parable took place in a much more basic situation with less variants/parables than is actualy existent in God's foreknowledge. The reason God knows the end from the beggining (as I understand it) is because He is SO UTTERLY FULL OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE that He can easily calculate the outcome of EVERY event without even consideration thereof (this is how I see it). As a result He immediately KNOWS what we are going to do (and yes, as a result He can just as easily figure out what every generation is going to do following), but that DOES NOT mean that He MADE US DO IT. That would make Him just as much fully responsible for damnation as He would be for salvation!! So, in short, He know's if I will put my feet on the desk, but He doesn't make me do it.
This is how I understand it.
- Agur - Fri Feb 03, 2006 06:52 PM
Also, isn't saying, "I'm a Calvinist", or "I'm a Lutheran", the same as "I am of Calvin", or "I am of Luther", if so wouldn't that be just as bad as "I am of Paul", or "I am of Appolos"? What do you guy's think?....Mabey for another post, but I figure it'de be short lived.
- Davo - Fri Feb 03, 2006 07:49 PM
Agur
Exactly
In some ways, Luther had very similar views to Calvin I believe, as expressed in his "Bondage of the Will."
When Luther was on trial at Worms, he was accused of being a Hussite. This he denied, but then realised that he did not know what a Hussite was, so went to the university library and read up on Jan Huss, and realised Huss believed the same as him.
Huss was leader of the Bohemian Church. The Bohemians were founded by missionaries of the Lyonists, or the Poor Men of Lyon, who were founded by Peter Waldo, who was associated with the Waldensians, who claimed their separation from Rome at the time of Pope Sylvester, who was Bishop of Rome at the time Constantine removed the seat of Empire to the east.
- Agur - Fri Feb 03, 2006 08:09 PM
Davo, are you saying exactly to the post directly before yours or the on before it?
- Davo - Fri Feb 03, 2006 08:12 PM
James.
On your Calvin web page you say that Henry Grattan Guinness, author of Rome and the Reformation, was a Calvinist. I have that book and I have just finished reading his The City of the Seven Hills, a history of Roame in the form of a Poem. Would you like to say why you thi nk he was a Calvinist.
- Davo - Fri Feb 03, 2006 08:14 PM
Agur I was saying exactly to your post regarding Paul Apollos, etc. I have always thought that.
- Raymond - Fri Feb 03, 2006 08:24 PM
Calvin did not invent the doctrine. He believed it of course, but he does not own it. Men like to attach the name of other men to a doctrine. Its easier to discredit a man than it is to discredit scripture.
To answer your question, Paul also said to follow him as he follows Christ. As long as the end of it is that you are following Christ and He gets the glory for it, I dont think its a problem. But to say I am of Paul, or Apollos because you think that makes you more spiritual than your brother is wrong.
Another thing to consider is how much has sin affected man? Has it affected his will? If man's nature is sinful, doesnt that make his will sinful? Or is his will the only thing untouched by sin. Will a sinful will ever make a "descision" for Christ?
Quote: 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I dont think prior to being saved men have much of a free will. The only thing you live for is your flesh. God is not in your thoughts. The biggest choice you make is budweiser or miller.
Can a dead man discern things of the Spirit? Can a dead man make himself alive?
Quote:Epesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If it all comes down to the will, then what would have happend if God crucified his Son and nobody made a "descision" for Him at all?
Surely that would have been possible. Or was God just playing the odds? God certainly was not playing the odds. He had a plan and He is working that plan out to His glory.
And if it comes down to my will, then cant I boast over a man that was presented the same gospel and rejected it? Why not? We were presented the same gospel and I made the more intelligent choice and accepted it. He made a bad choice and rejected it.
Also dont we all pray for certain people that we know to be saved? If you believe that its all up to mans choice then why do you ask God to change a mans heart and save him? Arent you asking God to do something that you have already stated that you dont believe He does, and thats interfere with mans free will (make him believe)?
Comparing scripture with scripture is correct. But just quoting one or two verses to try and make your point does not work. You need to take the election verses and the free choice verses and look at them in relation to each other.
God knows how His sovereignty and mans will works in relation to salvation. Ill just trust Him.
Ray
- Agur - Fri Feb 03, 2006 09:07 PM
Well said Ray, allow me to put in my two cents.
If God has foreknowledge (as we all believe He does...I think), but does not actualy control us (but rather we control ourselves--as I believe...I can do what I want if I want)...He would still know ahead of time if His plan would work (i.e. if people would accept His Son), so He would know to move ahead with it...That's what's great about God, He know's what He know's without a doubt!! He created us, He understands us, and the fact is He favors us (that's how I feel)!!
- Jim - Fri Feb 03, 2006 09:44 PM
Aughavey, you are correct, i have heard some really good sermons from Arminians.
I can't agree with free-will at all, but that doesnt mean that they're not saved.
- jgb321 - Sat Feb 04, 2006 03:03 AM
Guinness for a Reformed believer. He would have held to the Westminster Confession of Faith (some chosen for Heaven and some chosen for Hell before the world began) which is not biblical. I deal with this in my article under Unconditional Election.
James
http://www.excatholicsforchrist.com/index.php?PageURL=Calvinism%20Examined.htm
- Aughavey - Sat Feb 04, 2006 08:17 AM
Agur Wrote:[quote=Aughavey]"So, in short, He know's if I will put my feet on the desk, but He doesn't make me do it.
This is how I understand it.
which is predestination is it not? you are predistined to do what you do.
- Raymond - Sat Feb 04, 2006 09:10 AM
I heard Pastor Johnny Pope describe the sovereignty of God and the free will of man this way. By the way this is a paraphrase of how I remember it, not a direct quote.
He described it like he was on a cruise ship. He could do whatever he wanted on that ship. He could go to the dining hall, the rec room, or his cabin. But nothing he did while on that ship was going to change the desitination of that ship. That was in control of the captain.
So at least according to Johnny Pope, God doesnt make you throw your leg up on the table.
Ray
- Davo - Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:30 PM
James
I know what your Calvin page says, I read it. It took me all the evening.
What I asked is why you believe he was a Calvinist. I understood either he or his wife were Brethren, and the Brethren that I know have not been Calvinist.
David
- jgb321 - Sat Feb 04, 2006 04:17 PM
At the present time I have loaned the book to a friend, so until I get it back I cannot recall his exact denomination, but I am sure he was not Brethren, for as you rightly say most of them are not Calvinist, although I know some that are.
To be Reformed, which he was, means one a is Calvinist, i.e., subscribes to the Reformers. Now the Baptists and Anabaptists would and still don't adhere to Reformed theology, although some do.
Hope this helps?
James
- Jim - Sat Feb 04, 2006 06:41 PM
I'm one of the few!