aww, sorry pastor Wally. Thanks for taking your time to give your thoughts. If it helps, I greatly look forward to them. -

God bless you!
Chris

I have changed my mind, and instead of giving a lenghty reply to Razorbuck I will confine myself to an explanation of what we understand to be the doctrine of limited atonement or particular redemption, which I believe is the main point of the request from Razorbuck.
I am fully conversant with Tulip and the only thing I have learned from those 5 points is that salvation is entirely of God, that He planned it all before the foundation of the world, and that He has and is still working it out in the lives of believers, who are saved by the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to pay the price of our sins. Or as John explains:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
The atonement of Jesus was sufficient to pay the price of the sins of the world, but it is obvious that the whole world is not going to be saved, only a remnant will be saved.
And that remnant are those who have been elected from before the foundation of the world, they are part of the plan of God. They are the people of whom the angel Gabriel said: "For he will save His People from their sins. (Matt.1:21)
Is that unfair? I don't believe so. I believe that it is only a sovereign God who has the right to choose whom He will save.
Jesus made that clear too when He said in John 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Or:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
And in His High Priestly prayer in John 17 He prays for not for the world but for THOSE WHO THOU HAST GIVEN ME.
Also in the same Gospel of John Jesus calls His followers: "My Sheep" and states that He knows His sheep and they know Him.
And that flock which is mentioned in this gospel, and also in other places, is the Church. It is the Church which Christ has purchased with the shedding of His blood.
As we can learn from Eph.5; where it says:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Limited atonement does not mean that only a few will be saved because Christ died in order to secure the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through his sacrifice not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and can not by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved.

God bless.
Pastor Wally

Walter,

May I make a suggestion? I learned very quickly that before putting my thoughts on post, I put everything MS Word and then cut and paste.
This keeps me from losing my posts.

Just a thought.

Jim

Freeindeed posted: "I must be honest with you all: I find Calvinism very uncomfortable, and nothing would please me more than dismissing it altogether. I neither like believing that I do not have much of a role to play in what happens to me, nor that God is holding an "un-elect" accountable for something they cannot help anymore than I can rid Africa of Aids."

And I reply Halejulah! The Grace of God and His Spirit are working on you! Man (his flesh) hates the doctrines of Calvinism, so called, because it strikes at man's PRIDE. We 'want' to be in control, we 'want' to be our own god(s) and we hate every inference at having someone else in control of us, much less a God we can't see, hear or touch.

The point we hop over so easily is that we are NOT god, we have created nothinng, especially man, from the dust of the earth. God is still God, and I thank Him daily that He is still in control. As long as He is God, and is in control, He has the right, power, and might to demand of all mankind that He and He alone is to be worshiped. He will hold every single person accountable to His Just System. Remember the first commandment?

Of course you can't rid Africa of Aids, but God could if He so chose. But in His Soverignity He has chosen to let the disease have its course. He has the right to do this, for again He IS GOD.

In Him,
Pilgrim

I think you may find many articles/books of interest to read here:
http://www.rmiweb.org/books.htm
This young man has an amazing aray of good solid writing. He has no modern day 'fluff' to his writing but rather a heart after God and a clear scriptural speech.
Pilgrim

You stated in a post: "Brothers, I believe that my LORD draws all men to Himself."
Are you saying that you believe every single person that walks the earth will be drawn to Christ?
Or do you believe that 'all' that were 'given Him' by the Father will come to Him?
If you believe the first, there would be no point in Christ's life, sacrifice, and resurection for God could have just pardoned everyone with a word.
If you believe the second, there had to be an atonement, a life, a sacrifice, a perfection that would please God in order for filthy sinners to be allowed back into His Presence.

May God enlighten your heart to His Truth. Keep reading and studying, He will reveal His Truth to you, in His time.
Pilgrim

Your question was posted:
Assuming you believe the word teaches that our LORD in His infinite wisdom predestines some to salvation, in what sense are the false teachers of 2 Peter 2:1 "bought" by the LORD?

Without much time this a.m. to study before work, it comes to mind that this passage is referring to the O.T. where we saw many 'saved' thru the Red Sea, many accepted into God's Family, yet all were not Truly His. there were many false prophets, ie. Balim and others. Even in the N.T. you see one such as Judas, literally 'in the fold' and yet a traitor. These are things hard to understand, but God will work out His Plan, even when our puny pigmy minds do not understand what He is doing. Remember His thoughts are not ours....and truly our minds cannot comprehend His lofty thoughts, that is where the Trust and Faith enter.... Thank Him that He is in control and not us!!
Pilgrim

"Pilgrim313" wrote this in response to me: "God is still God, and I thank Him daily that He is still in control. As long as He is God, and is in control, He has the right, power, and might to demand of all mankind that He and He alone is to be worshiped. He will hold every single person accountable to His Just System."

This brings me to something I've been wondering:
Many Calvinists I speak with are very very quick to pull the "God is in control" card, and it seems to be used anytime there is a hint of anxiety over something. The response is, "oh well...God is in control." In other words, my Calvinist friend, who struggles with sinful desires of a particular nature and can't seem to overcome them, says of his wants, "God is in control." It's as though he has this luxury of throwing his arms up in the air, waiting on God to change his "want to's" when he's not doing his part. So he sits there, frustrated with God and dying in his sin.

"Pilgrim313" is appealing to this same idea. "I thank Him daily that He is still in control." The next statement is what brings my question, "...He has the right, power, and might to demand of all mankind..." If God exercises such "tight" control over this universe in the ways that Calvinism teaches--or at least in the ways that my Calvinist friends talk--then any sort-of "demand" doesn't make sense. I thought it was interesting that in two sentences, back-to-back, there were contradictory ideas. God is in control, but yet He must demand that I do something?? After all, Calvinism plays the "I can't do anything card" as its key philosophy--which makes sense coming from the wake of Roman Catholicism where you had to do lots of things.

I just can't seem to harmonize that together, ya know? And that is my problem--and is why I am here in conjunction with studying these topics on my own. I think that was Razorbuck's problem too--harmonizing the apparent contradictions in God's Word together.

Pastor Wally, I'm glad you "confined" your post, because I am well-versed on limited atonement, as well as all other doctrines surrounding this "reformed system" from Augustine of Hippo--the greatest contributor to Roman Catholic doctrine as well. That said, thank you so much for your reply. Man...you guys are awesome for giving your time up like this to help others understand.

Bless you all,
Chris

freeindeed wrote: "Many Calvinists I speak with are very very quick to pull the "God is in control" card, and it seems to be used anytime there is a hint of anxiety over something. The response is, "oh well...God is in control." In other words, my Calvinist friend, who struggles with sinful desires of a particular nature and can't seem to overcome them, says of his wants, "God is in control." It's as though he has this luxury of throwing his arms up in the air, waiting on God to change his "want to's" when he's not doing his part. So he sits there, frustrated with God and dying in his sin."

One must first come to realize that all that profess with the mouth, are not necessarily His. I do not mean this in a darogatory way, but rather His Truth. Just because someone tells you he is a 'calvinist' or is 'saved' doesn't mean it is true. We must remember this. What you report is truly a cliche and many times it is used as an excuse for man to do nothing. Yet in His Word we are told to shun sin, put on the new man, work out our salvation etc. Man is not without 'things to do', but they are to be done all to His Glory, nothing in it to bring praise to man. If your friend is having trouble with his 'sin' he is either not truly His, not wanting to rid himself of them, or not relying on prayer and the power of the Spirit. It is not that we never have to deal with our flesh and our sin, but belonging to Him shows us that there are ways to overcome, anything! The problem with man is his 'self' and 'I wants' and it is the hardest thing for man to overcome. There is NO reason to be frustrated with God, and most assuredly not to 'sit in sin'.....for The Spirit will not allow it for long. Walking with the Lord, especially in Calvinist beliefs, brings man to realize his worthlessness, his sinful desires more and more each day, and his total dependence on God for Righteousness, for he is so totally depraved on his own. This is why I say 'Thank God! He is in control'. I don't have to depend on 'my self' to lead the way, He leads, He brings into life things necessary for me, He takes out of life things bad for me, etc. etc. "All things work together for Good" I just have to keep 'self' under control and admit when it 'gets loose'.
Hope this helps you understand a little better.

Freeindeed posted: "Pilgrim313" is appealing to this same idea. "I thank Him daily that He is still in control." The next statement is what brings my question, "...He has the right, power, and might to demand of all mankind..." If God exercises such "tight" control over this universe in the ways that Calvinism teaches--or at least in the ways that my Calvinist friends talk--then any sort-of "demand" doesn't make sense. I thought it was interesting that in two sentences, back-to-back, there were contradictory ideas. God is in control, but yet He must demand that I do something?? After all, Calvinism plays the "I can't do anything card" as its key philosophy"

God has the right, power, and might to demand of all mankind, is totally true, as He IS GOD, the creator, and sustainer of ALL (meaning every living, moving, breathing 'thing' and the universe and all that fills it, literally EVERY last thing!) I am surprised that you can't understand this. Are you a parent? We that are 'in control' of offspring, or over others in employment, should totally understand being 'in control'. The subordinate role is not to 'man's' liking, when 'he' isn't the one in control. But from a 'Calvinist' position we relish the idea! We have been bought by the precious Blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Why would I want to do anything to offend Him, when there is no other person alive in this world that has loved me to the extend He has! God 'demands' by His Just requirements. It is His perrogative, He has every right to do as He wishes. We in turn need to humble ourselves and submit to His Will. (that is the giving up of 'self' again, as I mentioned in my previous post).

I have to truly say I have never heard a Calvinist say"I can't do anything" but rather we feel "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me"....do you see the difference?

I would suggest that rather than 'listening' to your friends that you read His Word, and each time before reading, take a moment for prayer and earnestly ask Him to show you what He wants you to know, things that you 'must' know to be assured that what you believe is His Truth. You will be amazed at the results. He WILL show and teach you thru His Spirit, all things necessary for Salvation.
Pilgrim

Freeindeed posted: "I just can't seem to harmonize that together, ya know? And that is my problem--and is why I am here in conjunction with studying these topics on my own. I think that was Razorbuck's problem too--harmonizing the apparent contradictions in God's Word together."

Ah, but it isn't a contradiction! It only resides in your mind as a contrdiction, as you try to keep 'man' on the throne of 'control'. The main point with Calvinism and Christ's Gospel is that it hits man in his PRIDE. and man hates it! Man wants to be in control, working out his destiny to his pleasure. God doesn't run a 'tight' control, but He is Just in that all He wills, will come to pass and that all He wills is for the good of His children (believers, elect, chosen ones, etc.)

If you were a King in today's world, would you not expect your subjects to do exactly as you instructed? Would you not expect your word to be LAW. If you are a parent, do you not expect your children to follow your directions explicitly? Do you not expect total adherence to your 'demands'? (even if you think they are not capable of fulfilling them). It is not a matter as to whether man is 'free' or not, but rather that God, being the Supreme One and ONLY God of creation has the right, power, and might to require of us, what ever He will, and we as His subjects, servants, slaves, creation, etc. are bound to obey Him. It is His Justice (in being able to requrie anything of man) that is bothering you. It is this that man must submit to. The thing that puts man face down in the dust, killing his pride. I love to think on the verse "What is man that you are mindful of him?" when my 'self' flares up. We think too highly of ourselves and love to bring God down to our level.

In your prayers, ask for a true glimpse of the Crucified and Risen Christ.
May He answer your prayers.
Pilgrim

"Pilgrim313" and readers,

Some interesting things said to me by Pilgrim encourage my response and deeper questioning. To all who have and will respond, again, thank you for your time and efforts.

First let me clear something up, Pilgrim. You wrote the following:

Also >

Let us not presume too much, okay? *grin. I perfectly understand that God has the "right" to expect and demand certain behavior from all mankind--moreover that God's grace and love sustains the whole universe. I am fully aware that I am wretched and deserve not one more moment of life before the sight of our Holy God. I often prostrate myself before Him for this is my pleasure to let God be God. I need Him to be BIG--the Lion of Judah--but I also need Him to be my daddy. I am thankful I know my Father in Heaven as both "loving friend" and "horrifically wonderful God whose voice makes the whole Earth tremble".

Now then, you said that my "problem" with Calvinism is my pride--that I am not wanting to "die" thereby fully enthroning The Almighty God and dethroning myself. It is almost as though you tout this idea as Calvinism's greatest triumph, and this interests me greatly.

For one thing, I would caution you to not be prideful in your Calvinism, because this defeats your point that such doctrines crucify pride quite successfully. What I mean is that pride must surely be crucified in one's heart by God Himself, which means Calvinism has nothing to do with it. Furthermore, any responsible Christian, regardless of denomination or doctrine, could walk equally prostrated in constant humbleness for it is by the Spirit--not by Calvinism.

That expressed, I would like to clarify what exactly my problem is, because pride is not the issue. My issue, and the point I was making by mentioning my struggling friend, is that when one walks in Calvinistic dogma, then one is forced to obey in spite of their doctrine rather than because of it. In other words, a Calvinist "must" pray and witness to the lost in spite of what they believe regarding "election" and "free will."

God’s love for the lost and the love of Christians for the lost—two major interrelated themes of Scripture—have no part in Calvinism. We know many would take offense at that statement who, indeed, are lovingly concerned for the lost. This is, however, in spite of and contrary to their Calvinism and not because of it. A Presbyterian theologian wrote this:

In Calvin's entire "Institutes of the Christian Religion" there is not one mention of God's love for the lost! Nor is that surprising in view of the fact that Calvin's God can only love the elect. Does that not bother Calvinists, I wonder???

Furthermore, Calvin's concept of love is defective. He says that God "requires that the love which we bear to Him be diffused among all mankind, so that our fundamental principle must ever be, Let a man be what he may, he is still to be loved, because God is loved." This is one of several places where Calvin says the Christian is to love "all mankind." Should not God, then, who is love, love all men also? Calvin never says so—his doctrine wouldn't allow such a statement—though he agrees in principle with these contradictory thoughts.

Pilgrim, you wrote that the contradictions were only in my head as I sit here and wrestle with "giving up" my pride. On the contrary, you believe that God predestinates or foreordains or causes all that happens. If this is true, then any command God gives mankind is in spite of the fact that He foreordains everything that happens. In other words, if I do not obey, then that disobedience was caused by God; therefore, God's justice operates in spite of the fact that we are powerless to do something outside of His divine will. Do you see the contradiction? You question whether or not I'm a parent, and I throw that right back at you for it is way more appropriate to ask a Calvinist this question. No parent would punish a child for doing something they couldn't help but do. That is like grounding a kid for poor reading skills when he's dyslexic.

I begin to understand such atrocious views of God when I see how the doctrine is all inter-related together. What I mean is that we are told to be like God (Christ), and so hopefully we begin acting like the Deity we serve—though I do not hope this in the case of Calvinism. Calvin's God denied free will, and therefore Calvin did the same with his followers. He damned anyone who disagreed with him and coerced everyone into conformity. Like His God who destined people for the lake of fire, Calvin violently executed any who disagreed with him. Again, another contradiction~

All of this in spite of stuff does not work for me, and that's my problem. A house divided cannot stand, and thus God cannot be "tongue in check" with His expectations, commandments, and laws. You enjoy appealing to the fact that God can do anything He so pleases—like rid Africa of Aids (the example you put this with). But surely this cannot be! For I know the word "cannot" does in fact apply to God. And before you cry "blasphemer" think on this for a moment: God cannot lie, cheat, steal, sin, change, break promises, or go back on His Word while being supremely holy. He is bound—bound by His own laws and decrees. If this were not so, then the old law would not have needed a fulfillment (Christ); it could have simply been broken or gone back on. So if your doctrine is correct, then the mere fact that Africa has Aids means that God has decreed it. But if this is true, by the very definition of something being predestined, it must play out this way. In other words, God cannot change it. (just playing to the example; I believe Aids is a result of sin—much to God's dismay rather than some sort of 'sick pleasure' I can't comprehend).

No verse clearly states that God predestines souls for Hell or that mankind is "totally depraved" in the Calvinistic sense. Not one single verse. Sure you can deductively reason such theories out of some scriptures, but for every scripture that appeals to man's wretchedness, I can find one that appeals to his inherent goodness and God's expectation of that goodness to be exercised. To say that God can only know the future because He predestined it, is likewise unbiblical and putting God in a theoretical box. Surely God is powerful enough to exist outside of time entirely so that the terms "past" and "future" do not apply. Surely it is all "present" since He is the "I Am"! Surely He can know something without causing it. Surely He doesn't need to cause everything in order to be Sovereign. Surely I can have free will without frustrating God's purposes since He knew all the choices mankind would ever make for itself since before He began time. Surely God acts because of all that He is rather than in spite of.

Hopefully I didn't upset anyone, but this should show you my "problem" and that it isn't pride. Think how you would feel if you suddenly found out that your earthly father, whom you've loved and trusted your entire life, were a contract killer for the Mafia--or that your heavenly Father sends people to Hell for His sick pleasure. It would be devistating and hurt your feelings--and these problems would have nothing at all to do with pride.

United with you on the rock of our savlation,
Chris

Freeindeed posted:
"For one thing, I would caution you to not be prideful in your Calvinism, because this defeats your point that such doctrines crucify pride quite successfully. What I mean is that pride must surely be crucified in one's heart by God Himself, which means Calvinism has nothing to do with it. Furthermore, any responsible Christian, regardless of denomination or doctrine, could walk equally prostrated in constant humbleness for it is by the Spirit--not by Calvinism. "

Great post, Chris, I am not offended in anyway, by anything said, but do relish the opportunity to take the opportunity to converse with you.

I am not 'proud' in my 'calvinism' but rather attest to the belief of what is labeled calvinistic thinking, or that system of thinking, (that Calvin simply addressed in his Institutes). It is a system that uses the accronym TULIP, which you may be familiar with, total depravity, unconditional election, limited attonement, irresistable grace and perservance of the Saints. There is nothing in the 'system' of thinking that gives or attests to the credit of 'man' to do a thing. That is where the 'pride' comes in, in the fact that we as humans want to do something or feel that we have to do something. We will show 'good works' when we are truly saved, but it all comes from Him, His leading, His spirit working within, Him working out His Will in us. I firmly believe that when one truly gets a 'sight' of the Crucified Christ, that his pride will be affected. But it is an on going process, it doesn't happen in totality all at once. We are such wretched creatures that it takes our lifetimes before we are acceptably changed and then allowed to be with him.

I will answer this in sections to try to keep clarity to my replies.
Pilgrim

freeindeed posted:
"That expressed, I would like to clarify what exactly my problem is, because pride is not the issue. My issue, and the point I was making by mentioning my struggling friend, is that when one walks in Calvinistic dogma, then one is forced to obey in spite of their doctrine rather than because of it. In other words, a Calvinist "must" pray and witness to the lost in spite of what they believe regarding "election" and "free will."

This is the 'key' to understanding, Chris. God never forces anyone! It is His Spirit that works within us, with our not knowing that it is happening. no one ever knows that the Spirit has moved him in some way, He just does it, and we find ourselves believing differently, or acting differently that we had previously. It is very similiar to one becoming 'saved'. They may have heard the Gospel for a long time, and yet never believed it. Yet on one certain day (In God's time (ing)) they all of a sudden find them selves believing the Gospel and repenting come to Christ. No one can explain it, but the Spirit came, did his work of 'regeneration' and continues to 'work within' without our knowledge.

doing something, in spite of their 'doctrine' as you call it, is simply getting internal 'heart' knowledge over 'head' knowledge. Anyone can attest to believing a doctrine, but until it is planted in their heart (by the Spirit) it will have no effect.

We pray and witness to the lost, for they are simply that, LOST. We have no concern whether they are elect, chosen, free, or whatever other label there is, it is simply that they are Lost, and we know thier end. We want them to be aware that there is an option, one does not have to go to hell in ignorance. God has provided an escape. We just preach the Gospel and He will take care of things on His end. The word will either be accepted or rejected. The rejected ones are only putting another nail in the coffin.

Hope this helps some.
Pilgrim

As far as your words against 'Calvin' and his Institutes, it was not all of his works. You would have to read more of his writings to see that he too had a love of the lost. The institutes was basically written as the 'system' of thinking and probably as a refute to Arminiasm, and other false beliefs at his time. Calvin was just as human as the rest of us, made mistakes just like the rest of us, there are none perfect, except One! There is much debate about Calvin's involvement in the death of Servates (sp?) but that really has nothing to do with the subject. David comitted murder and adultery and he WAS the Lord's man.
Pilgrim