I was in a service last night when the pastor referred to several verses which used the phrase "for whom Christ died" as verses which proved limited atonement (LA), which he called particular redemption. I have not spent much time researching this issue. Rather than this, I simply accept the Scripture at face value (whosoever means everyone has an opportunity to believe). What made this pastor's point-of-view interesting to me was that when I asked him about several verses that use "the world" (such as John 3:16, I John 2:2), he stated that "the world" refers to Gentile believers, and not every person. I had never heard this before!

I began to question his interpretations, and became aware right away that he was well-read and prepared to rebutt any of my arguements. As time was limited, I ended the conversation with the promise that I would re-examine the issue.

I cannot and will not step over to the LA camp. I am certain in my heart that the Scriptures clearly speak of the availability of salvation to every one who seeks it. I am, however, weak in my ability to combat this error in doctrine well enough to match this good man's misunderstanding. His conversation shows that he has done a great deal of reading (probably the well-known writers of the past).

Concerning the definition of "world", I did a search of the greek word "kosmos" used in John 3:16, I John 2:2, etc. and his definition makes NO SENSE! I will be seeing him again later this week, and this will be the first thing that I ask him. I would suspect that he already has an answer.

Any help would be appreciated.

Brother Tim, I mean no disrespect to you but I will be blunt and to the point. What is the purpose of continuing this discussion with this man? Do you have a need to prove him wrong or to prove your self right? I am rather curious about that. You have well stated that he is very well versed on his position. That leads me to believe that he is not going to change his opinion no matter how wrong anyone may point out to him it is.

So again the question comes up of why continue this discussion with him? The Bible addresses the situation in the following way:

The Bible says to stay away from him, not to attempt to change his mind or have him to see truth. Paul further says his reason for what he does is to deceive the hearts of the simple. Are you one of the simple? I don't believe so. Not from the way you express youself.

Iknow you will do what you want to do but I think continuing this discussion with such a man will be a waste of The Lord's time.

In Christ,
George

While I understand where this pastor is coming from, and will not input my opinion here on this particular subject, you said somethinf rather interesting.

My response to this statement, is that you are correct in doing this, and don't stray away from it. Of course follow the Holy Spirits leading and revealing of scripture. Study to shew thyself approved........

I try to stand away from the Calvinism/Arminianism debate as I beleive it takes a persons focus away from what is truth.

If you really think about limited atonement......who really cares? I know that seems pretty harsh, but does it really matter? If a person wants to focus and preach on the fact that only certain people are going to be saved, then let them.

I wouldn't want to attend a church that focuses on that particular subject. I would rather attend a church that focuses on telling their people to get out there and give a witness. That millions of people are dyign and goinmg straight to Hell. That we must be about our Father's business.

Whether we have a "free-will" or if we are "predestinated", or if there is limited atonement, or unconditional election should have very little bearing on our work for Christ in my humble opinion. It should, or should not determine, or dictate for that matter, our walk for Christ.

Let us focus on things that glorify Him, and give Him pleasure in our desire to serve Him....

Just some thoughts to think about.

Love in Christ,

Jim

George and Jim,

I receive your advice with great appreciation. George, your bluntness is desired, as taken from a brother who cares about my spiritual growth.

As to the idea that I have a need to have the discussion with him, that has two parts. The first is, that I had never met someone that I knew to any degree that held the LA view. I was curious at first that he could really hold to this view, and wanted to determine if it was simply something that he was "parroting", or that he had researched it. The latter was obvious quite soon. The second reason is that I am a teacher (we have a Christian school at our church). After 30 years of teaching, my natural response to anyone who does not understand a Scriptural doctrine, especially a fundamental one, is to attempt to bring that one to a better understanding of the truth.

Apollos was an "eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures," (Acts 18:24) with an incorrect understanding. Aqula and Priscilla opened his eyes to the truth. I would not only like to be like that with others, but I would also hope that I am just as willing to have my eyes open, so I do appreciate your input.

This pastor is a very sincere student of the Scripture. He has somehow come to a wrong conclusion (which many others have also done through the years). This has always been a puzzle to me. I consider myself a seeker of the truth. I want to know everything possible from the Scripture exactly as God intends It to be understood. Obviously there are countless others who would say the same. Both of you clearly have every intention to "rightly divide" God's Word. The puzzle is that we believers can come to such different, mutually exclusive interpretations.

I think that most of us would say that there are doctrines that we are certain about, some that we might have a reasonable confidence in our interpretation, and still others that we have not studied enough to have a definite position. I suppose that it is best to try to discern the level of someone's belief in a particular doctrine, and then use that as a determination of how much effort to put into "brotherly debate".

One more reason that I tend to get into discussions with brothers like this pastor is that I am searching for someone with whom I can have a close fellowship with, to bounce thoughts off about the unsearchable riches in God's Word. My father and I spent much time together doing this for many years until his death two years ago. By the way, this site has be an enjoyable discovery for me.

Thank you for your considerations. Sorry about the epistle.

You know, I think this is a very important topic you are bringing up. Too often you can hear one bible student defend their position and proclaim that another student is using scripture for his own private interpretation, and the other bible student can turn around and claim the very same thing.

Wouldn't it be interesting if we just took scripture, applied it to ourselves, only discussed the fundamentals, and didn't worry about how everyone else was using it? (I speak of true christians of course, as the unsaved wouldn't understand it anyway) But, this is not a perfect world, and we are all sinners.

We simply have to pray to the Lord to reveal to us according to what He wants us to know in scripture. We need to approach with a yielded, teachable heart. And we need to have faith.

We need ot worry about ourselves and have the confidence and faith that what we are learning to be given of the Lord, and follow the teachers who the lord leads us to follow.

We don't need to worry about the doctrine of the fellows that the Holy Spirit warns us about. If the warning truly comes from the Holy Spirit, then it will be obvious that the bad doctrine would follow.

I do ask people to think about one thing. The ideaology behind Calvinism is truly a humbling one if it is studied in its intended truth. It seeks to give the Lord God all sovereignty and immutablitiy with no thought to self whatsoever.

Limited atonement is a concept that I truly do not understand. It is one of the petals of the TULIP that has been hardest for me to swallow. It is a belief that the word "all" does not refer to all of mankind. They believe that the term "all" is specifically a reference to the predestinated only.

Don't get me wrong, I actually do believe in predestination. Maybe not in the same ways others perceive it, but i believe in it all the same. The bible makes reference to the predestinated too many time for any biblical student to ignore it. the secret is to the true understanding of it's meaning.

Anyhow, the concept of limited atonement cannot have meant only a select certain people. The result of salvation of course will only be a few people that accepted Christ as their Saviour according to the foreknowledge of God, and drawn by Him.

To truthfully understand "all" is to understand God's truth in Love. He loves Satan, but He cannot go against His Word. His Word is unchanging, it is perfect, and wants for nothing.

"For God loved the world...."

Here is a case in point. One bible student could easily say, "God loves the world. That means He loves everyone on earth that has ever been here equally, and that is what the bible means by "the world".

Well guess what? If taken out of context, another student could say that this is a contradiction because If God so loved the world, then why does 1 John 2:15 say:

This, at first glance, seems to be a blatant contradiction. How can God "so love the world", but tell mankind that "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."?

It has to be taken into context and underatood by the Holy Spirit, and takes a rational person who is led by the Holy Spirit to not be led away by the foolishness of those whose main purpose is to try an make the WOrd of God no effect.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not into thine own understanding............

If you pray about your situation and have a sober mind, the Lord will reveal the truth to you, I promise He will.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Brother Jim, that is so true! I try very hard to not align myself with any one man or even group of men. It is true that I am Baptistic in belief, in doctrine, but fundamental Baptist.

I just got through reading a post on another site in whch the writer disdained Peter Ruckman but embraced David Cloud and others. There were also statements about the Textus Receptus and various versions of the Bible.

In my way of thinking, who cares? Tell me what does almighty God have to say? I am a Christian first, foremost and always. I try my very best to follow the teachings of the Bible no matter how badly I fall flat on my face at times. Of course at times that is where The Lord wants me, flat on my face in the dirt in all humility and humbleness of mind.

I believe that aligning oneself with anything other than God's Holy Word can be dangerous. It matters not if it is Calvinism, Arminianism, Cloudism, Russelites, Ruckmanites, and the list goes on and on. This person believes that and the other believes the other. It is sometimes rather sickening. The Bible addresses the situation very well.

This problem has existed since the days of the Bible writing. It probably will never end but there are things we as individuals can do. The primary course of action is to reject affiliation with any of these splinter groups who at times attempt to use the words of man as doctrine. It ought not be that way and as shown above is completely contradicted by God's Holy Word.

In Christ,
George

George, you have unravleed the whole thing here. So many christians need to heed this.

Paul witnessed first hand the problems that arose when divisions starting occuring. I am almost certiain that the members of these divisions, argued about what their idea of something was, and not what the aposlte Paul taught them according to God's Word, or the pastor that Paul left their to shepherd them.

We really need to see this, understand it, and apply it don't we brother? I really, really like what you said here:

I find that this is where I belong so much of the time. I believe one of the sins that so easily besets me is my pride, arrogance, and selfishness. It makes me shiver to know that so often, I go ahead without the Lord's blessing and guidance. What a dangerous situation for a christian to place himself!

Thank you George,

Love in Christ,

Jim

This may be moving away from the original topic of this thread, but it fits the last few responses. I would tie together the thoughts with this: When I was talking with the pastor who called himself a "five-point Calvinist" (quite specific, I'd say!), I made the comment that defining oneself like this tends to cause one to deductively interpret Scripture, rather than inductively (the Scripture speaks to us). I have to consider that I can be guilty as well.

I have run into this in a reverse sense with the pastor with whom I serve on Sunday mornings. His church, a nondenominational church (he is Baptist), bought the building from our church (an independently southern Baptist church). Our churches share the morning services. I teach the adult Sunday School, and he preaches the morning message. Occasionally I fill in. Our church has an afternoon Bible Study, as well. Several times I have asked this pastor about a Statement of Faith or Doctrinal Statement. He simply responds that it is the Bible. While this sounds great, it does not help when it comes to trying to determine whether or not to have "walking together" fellowship. When I pressed him about one issue, the preservation of the text, he said that "all Bibles have errors." That does not match what I read in the Scriptures! The key requirement that we made when we agreed to participate in the Sunday worship was that he would use the KJB, but I have not been comfortable since he said this.

It seems that we must somehow describe ourselves, though I don't know just how, without falling into the label trap.

Brother Tim, myself I beleive that to be rather easy. We are Christians. We don't have to be anything else nor does my beloved Bible say that we are to be anything else. Anything else we call ourselves aligns us with the teachings of men to some extent. Even the fact I consider myself a fundamental Baptist has some alignment with the doctrines of men. However I believe that position, of being a Christian first, foremost and always, and a Baptist secondarily is the best one for me and the closest I can find to the teachings of the Bible.

In Christ,
George

Most certainly, I am a Bible-believing Christian first. I have been brought up in a Baptist church and taught by a Godly father, to accept the Bible as the singular foundation for faith and practice - not the extra-biblical teachings of any man or organization.

I think that I also identify with much of what Calvinism teaches. Not that it is what a man has taught, but that those teachings are in line with what the Scriptures (based on my reading) teaches.

I joked to one friend that I am no more a Calvinist than Calvin is a Keyesist (my name). We just happen to believe the same thing about certain doctrines. [ Not including limited atonement !!]

By the way, (and well noted in another thread here concerning evangelism and election) I think that most TULIPs really don't fully believe or even understand the "L" part. I don't think that I could go through the challenges of witnessing if I were, at the same time, wondering while speaking to a resistant unbeliever, that maybe this one is not "one of us". God has called me to witness, not to save. I'll do my job, and He will most certainly do His!

Ezekielk 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

"I just got through reading a post on another site in whch the writer disdained Peter Ruckman but embraced David Cloud and others. There were also statements about the Textus Receptus and various versions of the Bible.

In my way of thinking, who cares? Tell me what does almighty God have to say? I am a Christian first, foremost and always. I try my very best to follow the teachings of the Bible no matter how badly I fall flat on my face at times. Of course at times that is where The Lord wants me, flat on my face in the dirt in all humility and humbleness of mind.

I believe that aligning oneself with anything other than God's Holy Word can be dangerous. It matters not if it is Calvinism, Arminianism, Cloudism, Russelites, Ruckmanites, and the list goes on and on. This person believes that and the other believes the other. It is sometimes rather sickening. The Bible addresses the situation very well. - George"

- Amen. Amen. Amen.


Maurice

Thanks for reviving this thread Maurice, it is very true. The label that is attached to us unfortunately defines our belief in the eyes' of others, and the Word of God is the final authority in our belief. Well, at least it SHOULD be.

If it weren't for that yucky heart of ours.........

Love in Christ,

Jim

To further the revival of this thread I present the following:

I, my Church and our Christian School have been accused by some of the more liberal and compromising churches as being legalists. I find that quite interesting. In truth legalism is defined as adding some requirement or requirements to salvation and is often linked to works salvation.

When a person, Church or school attempts to apply God's Word to their lives according to the way it is written some refer to us as legalists. Yet Jesus Christ placed the requirement of going beyond the law on all Christians.

There you have it. Unless our righteousness shall EXCEED that of the legalists of old we shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. We are required to exceed the things of the law but thank God that He sent His Son so that when we fall flat on our faces we have a way to deal with it. Do you realize there are no other people in the entire world who have this advantage? There are no other people who are promised forgiveness much less eternal life with a loving God.

If following what Jesus Christ taught makes me a legalist then I am a legalist. Period, end story!!

In Christ,
George

Brother George,

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." - Revelations 22:11

Maurice