I use the term inspiration as related to Scripture in a very narrow and restricted sense. A person may be inspired by God to say or write something of encouragement to another brother or sister in Christ. This is not the same as the inspiration of Scripture.

Scripture is God-breathed in that God spoke through men as they wrote to the degree that the very words and even the very letters were “GOD-BREATHED” (inspired). Certainly we repeat the word of God by word of mouth, but we often do not say it perfectly. The word of God was not limited to “oral tradition” for its transmission or preservation. Nor are words that we may feel are inspired of God as authoritative or perfect as the words of Scripture.

You asked,

“Are you telling me the Word of God has never been passed down by word of mouth? Are you telling me that the Word of God can only be found on clay tablets, papyrus, parchment, and paper? This is not consistent with scripture.”

I do not think I understand your question or statement. A prophet speaking the Word of God certainly did speak by Divine authority, but the term “inspired”, or more precisely “God-breathed” is generally limited to written record of God’s message. Oral tradition is imprecise. How is my understanding or statement not consistent with Scripture?

I use the term inspiration in one way. "God-controlled".

The scriptures are God-controlled. If they are not, they are of man. If they are of man, they are not of God and are corrupt.

Many of God's words were never written in scripture. Look at the last verse in John:

21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Are we to assume that Jesus never spoke during this time? Of course not.

However, my reference is to the earliest of time. Adam and Eve and their early descendants, I believe had no written means of communication. I may be wrong, but if I am not, How did the history of the descendants come to be? Now I may be completely wrong in my assumption here and that argument would be that all of the records of the Old Testament were given to all of the authors by inspiration. And that is how it came to be. Not passed down by manuscripts, but either word of mouth or by God Himself to the authors. I do not reference oral tradition. I speak as God's Word being preserved. I believe He preserved orally and written. I do not believe that inspiration is limited to anything. God's inpsiration is exactly when and where he chooses to fulfill His promise to preserve His Word.

Just my thoughts,

Jim

Interesting... that is insightful... so that means He can choose now to inspire any way He would like? I'm not being sarcastic... just thinking...

Moodee, are you following this thread?

We are trying to clarify a definition of inspiration as it seems to be a word that is confused in the way it is used. We are not talking about God controlling the inspiration, that is a given.

Just my thoughts, if I am wrong, forgive me, just trying to help along a little in case this was what you were thinking.

Jim

Jim,

Where is God's promise to preserve His Word perfectly?

RJP

I am not going there RJP, your question denotes that you do not believe God preserves His word, but since He does, does He not do it perfectly?

Or do you think God does not do things perfectly?

Your question to me is answered in 2 Timothy 2:23

Jim

I would say the question about God's Word being preserved perfectly is answered right there. Oh, it also covers the "modern" translations of the Bible.

2 Peter 1:21 tells us in rather plain language that the Scriptures are not the works of men but are the Words of God as spoken (and written) by men as they were instructed by the Holy Spirit. In my estimation. learning and reading it is accepted that God is perfect. If the Bible is the Words of God it is therefore perfect.

If anyone chooses not to accept that they are not part of orthodox Christianity but part of some splinter movement or cult. Pretty simple to me.

Yours in Christ,
George Groce

I fully believe in the inspiration and authority of the Scripture. But, I do not see anything about perfect preservation in any of those passages.

RJP

That is extremely interesting to me. Then you also discount the following passage:

(2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(2Ti 3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Some time back you gave us quite a treatise on the Greek of the New Testament, RJP. Therefore I am sure that you are aware of the Greek word used that is translated as "inspiration" in verse 16.

G2315
θεόπνευστος
theopneustos
theh-op'-nyoo-stos
From G2316 and a presumed derivative of G4154; divinely breathed in: - given by inspiration of God.

I notice that the definition says "divinely breathed in." That to me means perfect because in Christianity it is accepted that God is perfect and if he breathed in the scriptures they have got to be perfect.

That is unless you hold that God can be imperfect.

The answers are scattered throughout the Bible and are there for the reading and understanding.

Anyway that is what it says in my Bible.

In Christ,
George Groce

I just preached on 2Tim 3:16 a couple of weeks ago and gave my people the Greek lesson on the word. Of course God is perfect. Of course it was perfect as Moses, Isaiah, David, etc and Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, etc WROTE it. That is inspiration.

My question is this -- "Is it "God-breathed" everytime someone re-copies it or translates it into another language?"

All of the texts cited (except for "avoid foolish questions") speak to the fact that God divinely inspired the prophets, apostles, shepherds, gatherers of sycamore fruit, fishermen, Pharisee, etc. to the degree that what they WROTE was the very WORD OF GOD! None of the passages say that as men copy them, they will do so perfectly. None of them say that as they translate them, they will do so perfectly.

If every copy and translation is "God-breathed", why are there differences, even from 1611 to 1769 to 1850 in the KJV? God certainly does not change His Word! How did He let men change it?

These are just a few things I do not understand about the "perfect preservation" position. I was asking for clarification and help in understanding and evaluating whether or not this view can be defended from Scripture.

In HIS Service, and yours,
RJP

RJP,

Explain something to me. One question.

Do you believe that God will preserve His word?

If not, we have nothing further to discuss.

If so, just how do you suppose He does it?

Do you really think He would just leave it up to man to translate properly and hopefully he(man) won't make a mistake when translating? Or should we be repremanding ourselves for no longer making Greek our primary language? Or maybe nobody should have even spoken Greek in the first place? Oh wait, then we wouldn't have the New Testament, would we? Or would we? (It gives me shivers to refer to my Lord in such an irreverent way)

You know Satan comes up with these ideas for one reason: Keep us arguing. I am sure He is sitting back saying, "You know, it would be soooooo easy to get those so-called christians to start arguing about the very thing which made them christians in the first place. I know, let's get them so book smart, they start doubting the Holy Spirit and it's guidance".
So, why do you think pride is the number one abomination to God in His eyes according to Proverbs 6:17. Because we can use it to make ourselves God in our own eyes.

RJP, I am repeating myself when I say that what God reveals to us through His Word is perfect, not the actual words in grammatical format, if you may, are. God's Word is revealed to us through study of His scripture. If you want to argue about inspiration, fine, I bet you could carry on that same argument with just about everyone you come into contact with. I believe the KJV to be inspired. And when I say inspired, I mean exactly what the definition says:

I am NOT talking of the archaic form of inspiration:

One last thing,

I think this is appropriate using both definitions, think about this:

God's Word was given to us by divine inspiration(2a) and preserved for us by divine inspiration(1a)

Love in Christ,

Jim

Well, golly, I guess I just have to have my final say on this.

It seems to me that there is really only one issue here. Is the Word of God that we have today the preserved inspired Word of God or not? Is just part of it the preserved inspired Word? is none of it the preserved inspired Word, but just translations and copies that God had nothing to do with, but just the works of men?

This is the issue. If just part of it is the preserved inspired Word, then which part or parts are the preserved inspired Word? is it open to interpretation? If this is the case, then it is ok for us to pick and choose what we wish to believe? This of course would cause confusion, and we know that God is not the author of confusion; that is if, in fact, that verse came from God and not from man.

If none of the Bible is the preserved inspired Word of God, then we have no hope of the Scriptures. We have no idea what Gods plan of salvation is, because we might be reading only the words of men. How do we know then if Christ really came and died? How do we really know if He rose again? Or how do we know that it happened like the Bible says? If the Bible is not the preserved inspired Word of God, then we have no hope or assurance of ever knowing God, no, we have no hope or assurance that God even exists, or that He has even offered salvation to us. After all, if God cannot preserve His word, how can He preserve us?

"Without faith, it is impossible to please Him." Our faith in God is completely dependent on what He says in His Word. If we have faith that God is who He says He is, and that He gave His Son to pay the penality for our sins, and that by accepting His gift of salvation we are made partakers of His Spirit, then we must believe His Word is His Word, that it is exactly what He meant to say, that His motives are exactly as they are laid out in the Bible. He must have preserved His inspired Word, otherwise we have no hope, no assurance.

Now, if the Bible is the preserved inspired Word of God, which Bible did He preserve His word in? the later versions that came after the KJV? The ones that put God and His dear Son in varying degrees of lesser light than the KJV? If the Holy Spirit does a work, He will do it with intergrity and honesty. In the KJV, the words that the translators added are all in italics, showing that they added these words to complete the thought or to make the sentence flow in English. The italics are there for all to see. Which of the modern translations expalin or show how they changed the Scriptures?

I have faith that the Bible is the preserved inspired Word of God, that what is said in the Bible, is exactly what God said and intended to say. I have faith that the Holy Spirit GUIDED the translators of the KJV to capture Gods exact message. I believe that the KJV is the only translation that shows God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same light that the original manuscripts held them in. Can I prove this? no. But that is where faith comes in. There is only one way to Heaven, that is by God through Jesus. That message is put forth COMPLETELY in only one translation, the KJV. Comparing all the other translations, copies, versions to the KJV, every one of them, in some way, deminish either God the Father, God the Son, and/or God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, as for me and my faith, we will depend on Gods Word being the preserved inspired Word of God as the KJV declares it.

Amen Jerry.

Thank you Brother Jerry. I will go one step farther in this assesment.

If the King James Version of the Holy Bible is not the inspired Word of God (as it says it is) and if any part of it is open to conjecture or interpretation then when folks come into Reformers Unanimous completely desperate they will soon find that our program is no different than any other program they have ever been to and we will lose them.

It is that simple. The Bible has to be the absolute Truth and the sole authority for faith and the way of living that will solve all of our earthly problems. Yes, I did say all of them. When folks come into RUI completely lost as I did we must have a solid foundation to build on. That foundation is in God with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone.

As you have pointed out, the so-called modern versions of the Bible do nothing more than pervert scripture and in the vast majority of cases serve to do nothing more than denigrate or even ignore the deity of Christ.

My goodness, the most popular modern version of the Bible appears to be the NIV. The NIV so disclaims the deity of Christ that there has been at least one book written on the subject. The others that I have seen excerpts from are far worse.

If any part of the Bible were open to any private interpretation or subject to question and accuracy then my whole reason for being in Church and Reformers Unanimous is baseless, I might as well throw my Bible in the trash and then I might as well go out and get drunk and loaded again. However, I have the Absolute Truth to rely on. I have the mighty fortress of our God to build on.

One of the aspects that I find completely disconcerting about the MV's is that most churches that use them deny eternal security. That is frightening to me. The most famous verse in the entire Bible, John 3:16 spells out eternal security as well as do many other verses.

I have that hope in Glory. The Glory of Christ in me. He is my Rock and my Salvation. Why on e arth would I want to even begin to read a so-called bible that does not spell this fact out? Personally, I don't.

Yours in Christ,
George Groce
(Please note that in certain uses above I have not used capital letters in spelling church and bible. That was done on purpose. I do not believe that the ones I refer to are deserving of capitalization. That is my own personal conviction.)

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;