Is the doctrine of total depravity self defeating?

Someone asked me the other day how a totally depraved person would have the knowledge they were totally depraved?

I am not sure of the original author my friend was reading or the full argument, but it seems interesting.

Any thoughts...

I am not saying I am for or against it, just looking for some thoughts.

I think it absolutely is, and that is good.

I believe the basic premise of the doctrine of Calvinism is to recognize the idea of "self" removed as far as possible from the person according to total depravity, and place the soul will of Christ as it's all-in-all. And yes, I think that is wonderful. Unfortunately, Calvinism is not solely the answer to the denial of self. It can just as easily cause pride in a person by the trying to attain humility, just as easily as it can be used to try to recognize God's sovereignty.

I do certainly believe in the total depravity of man. I believe the bible is clear on this.

It all boils down to the heart, as just about everything does. The recognition of total depravity can cause true humility in the humble heart, yet it can cause arrogance in a proud heart. Both have the look of humility, but can manifest itself differently in different hearts. Only the heart changed by the Lord can recognize and act on the doctrine of total depravity properly.

So to answer your question, yes it can be self-defeating in a good way...or a bad way...it depends on that persons heart.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Total depravity is so foreign to mankind! and mankind truly hates the Gospel and the way it puts man's face in the dirt, so to speak. No one other than a saved person would ever admit being totally depraved, as you can not learn of it until you read the Truth about 'man' as portrayed in the Bible. The Bible doesn't gloss over our sinfullness, doesn't make the people chosen by God to be glossed over super stars, but rather portrays them in the Light of God's Truth. For instance, Abraham lied, set up his wife to protect him, yet was a man of God, David comitted murder, adultery, lost his throne to a biligerent son, yet was a man of God, Noah spent 150 years 'listening' to God, built the Ark, saved his family, yet thought nothing of getting drunk....but was a man of God. The list goes on and on, but the people are all totally depraved. We have to be actually otherwise we don't need a Saviour, good people think they can save themselves!
Pilgrim