IRS to church: Shut up. Church to IRS: No way.

The Internal Revenue Service has issued thirty-one questions to a Christian church in Kansas concerning its beliefs and political activity. The church responded by saying it would not stop its teaching and preaching of God's Word. The IRS issued the questions in response to a sign the church had put up concerning the governor's ties to the abortion industry. The church was not interested in politics but rather in moral issues that affect us today. They also questioned the church on the former state attorney general who had spoken at the church some three or four years ago. They wanted to know if he had spoken of the upcoming elections at all.

Clearly, as the pastor of this church pointed out, this is a violation of that church's first amendment rights to the exercise of free speech and to practice their religion. Our government is getting to the point to where they are trying to silence all those who would speak the truth found in God's Word. Already in many Communist & Muslim controlled countries we can see where Christians are outlawed from speaking out or from practicing what the Bible teaches. The IRS & our government is doing everything it can to try and keep true Bible-believing churches from commenting on anything which might go against what the government is promoting.

This pastor was following the Bible's command to teach the whole counsel of God. He was warning his congregation of the dangers of abortion and of other issues which are prevalent in our society today. In other words he was teaching his people according to the Bible so that they might draw closer to God and become better Christians. This is the duty of every pastor if they are truly wanting to serve God. As pastors/preachers/teachers it is our duty to warn people of the social evils of our day and age and to teach them what the Bible says concerning those social evils.

It is coming a day very soon where many true Bible-believing pastors are going to have to make the choice between teaching only those things the government allows are teaching the truth of the Word of God and risking imprisonment for their politically incorrect views. We must continue to stand steadfast in the knowledge that we have the truth of the Word of God and that it is the only thing that can keep man from degrading into complete moral decadence. This nation was once great because its principles and laws were founded on the Word of God. Our founding fathers understood that for any nation to remain free and lawful it would have to have the Bible as its foundation.

The government can do its very best to try and silence the truth found in the Word of God and those churches who would bravely proclaim it, but it will never succeed in silencing those churches who are truly interested in serving God. All throughout history there have been those who have attempted to destroy the Bible and its believers from the Roman government at the time of Christ to the Catholic Church throughout the Dark Ages. This day and age is no different. If the Lord tarries then we will see Bible believers being openly persecuted in this once great nation. We must decide now that we will not let the government silence us through fear or oppression. We must stand up and loudly proclaim the truth of God's Word and the Gospel message found therein.

In Christ,

PreacherE

Hi all
I am new here
I pastor (just starting) a free Church in TN.

How is it that the IRS is sending out this fourm and is this authority over the church.
If it is, Is it legt. If so HOW?

Thank you
Bro. Harold

The IRS attempts to keep close tabs on all churches especially if they claim 501©3 tax status. By claiming that status churches are placing themselves under the authority of the IRS. The law states that any organization claiming tax exemption under 501©3 must refrain from making any kind of political endorsements. By posting something of a political nature on its sign they were violating the law of what they could do under the special tax exemption.

I am unsure of what the consequences are for this if found guilty. I do know that they can have their tax exemption rescinded if found guilty. I believe (though am not sure) that they can also face fines and other judgments against them depending on how far the IRS takes it.

I have also heard that a church does not have to seek 501©3 status in order to be tax exempted. I believe there is a law which states a church is automatically tax exempted. However, this is something that I have not researched on my own.

Hope this helps answer your questions.

In Christ,
PreacherE

P.S. Welcome to the boards.

Well said PreacherE

Churches only need a 501c3 if they love $$$$$ more then they love God.

irs code 508... is where it says if you follow all the rules of 501c3 you are tax exempted any way as a church.

The Church I pastor does not clame that eather

WE are simply a local Church under Jesus Christ we ask no one else!!

Bro. Harold

Very good and very informative Brother Preacher. As usual the things you post are right on. I was not aware of this particular situation but do know of other similar cases. The ones I am most familiar with are cases where Pastors have been accused of hate speech for speaking out against the moral sin of homosexuality.

In Christ,
George

This just in from Pastor Dixon:

Several pastors and church related ministries have publicly declared that they are taking on the IRS in this election year in a no-holds-barred fight. If the IRS doesn’t like it, they can basically go take a hike because it’s going to be business as usual with them, even if their tax-exempt status is put in jeopardy.

Mark Holick, Pastor of Spirit One Christian Center in Wichita, Kansas, and Wiley Drake, Pastor of the First Southern Baptist Church of Buena Park, CA, both of whom have received letters of inquiry from the IRS for “political” activity, are leading the way in this battle. There are currently four Religious Liberty Advocacy Law Centers that have joined the fray. The Alliance Defense Fund, led by Allen Sears; the Liberty Counsel directed by Matt Staver; the Christian Law Association founded by David Gibbs, Jr.; and Pat Robertson’s Center for Law and Justice under the leadership of Jay Sekulow. John Whitehead’s Heritage Foundation is also expected to be involved at some level.

With the support of these powerful law firms, it seems that the pastors are throwing caution to the winds and literally spitting in the eye of the tiger this election year. Jonathan Falwell was one of the first to throw down the gauntlet by inviting Mike Huckabee to speak at the Thomas Road Baptist church on a Sunday morning in Lynchburg just before the Virginia Primary.

Wiley Drake got the attention of Barry Lynn and his Americans United for the Separation of Church and State organization when Drake endorsed Huckabee on church stationary and Lynn informed the IRS. Now Drake is fighting back with the help of the Alliance Defense Fund to sue the IRS in order to keep his church’s tax-exempt status. In the mean time, Drake is calling for Christians to pray imprecatory prayers against Barry Lynn and Joe Conn, and Jeremy Learing of Lynn’s organization. In a February 12, 2008, Internet appeal Don Wildmon, the Director of the American Family Association is calling on people to help him launch a lawsuit against the IRS on behalf of these beleaguered churches.

In the meantime, many groups are sending out information in the mail and on the internet to minimize the fear, so that pastors will be willing to jump into the political arena. Following are some examples. On February 26, the Victory Baptist Church of N. Fort Myers, FL, was packed to hear Attorney David Gibbs, Jr. tell what pastors can do to stay out of trouble this election year. His solution? Pastors can do anything they want to do as long as they don’t do it under the auspices of the church.

One of the boldest articles came from the Liberty Legal Institute organization, of Plano, TX. This group is associated with James Dobson’s Focus on the Family organization. Other than saying that churches can’t endorse or raise money for candidates, including free use of “providing a list of church members to one candidate but not others” there isn’t much, according to them, that the church can’t do.

Matt Staver of the Liberty Counsel and Dean of the Liberty University School of Law is also sending out notices to churches declaring the following: “ALL PASTORS AND CHURCH MEMBERS DID YOU KNOW. . . that since 1954, the Johnson Amendment, meant to silence the church, of all the IRS complaints against Churches, not one Church has lost their tax exempt status due to ‘political’ involvement?”

Actually Johnson only enhanced the IRS code that was already in effect. The “public policy” principle Johnson added has been in the Internal Revenue Code from the very beginning of the nonprofit section of the Code was enacted. The principle is true for churches as well as religious organizations: “Come shekels”, that is, -- tax deductible gifts and now faith based money – “come shackles.”

If Staver had done his homework, he would have known that in May of 1995, the Internal Revenue Service officially removed the tax exempt status of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple even though the church had given up its tax-exempt status in 1986. The following headline appeared in the Indianapolis Star July 8, 1995:

IRS Officially Removes Baptist Temple Tax-Exemption May 1995
THE INDIANAPOLIS STAR
July 8, 1995
(Front page article)
Southside church loses state tax-exempt status
Baptist Temple lost federal status as well.

Why Did the IRS Persecute the Baptist Temple by Removing the Tax Exempt Status that the Congregation had Relinquished in 1986?

Because the IBT congregation would not recognize the jurisdiction of the IRS over the affairs of the church. Following are a few headlines from newspaper articles that IBT received through discovery from the IRS that they had been keeping on the pastor dating back to 1971 that the IRS considered to be political activity. These were the reasons that the IRS gave for removing the exempt status of the church.

Articles about IBT From Indianapolis Star and News Found in IRS Files via Discovery

The following headlines reflect articles that the IRS has kept on the Baptist Temple and its former pastor Dr. Greg Dixon dating back to 1971.
· Baptist High School to stress Bible - 1971
· Rev. Dixon fights day care License - 1978
· Church Plans tech school - 1978
· Pornography target of downtown rally attended by 1000 - 1981
· Rev. Dixon opposes lottery Bill - 1983
· Churches to fight encroachment - 1983
· State tax laws may collide with church - Dixon - 1985
· Group to obey Jesus, not government - 1986
· Dixon opposes Gov. Orr on schools – 1987
· Gays urge panel to include them in anti-bias bill; it was opposed by Rev Greg Dixon – 1990




In the Liberty Legal Institute notice to pastors mentioned above, they make an incredible statement: “Individually, a pastor can do whatever he feels led to do…There are no limitations. The few limitations above that exist are only for the church entity and only if the church is a non-profit corporation . . . Pastors should not be intimidated from acting as pastors, etc.”

Why doesn’t someone ask the question, “From whence does the Lord’s church get its authority – from the Holy Scriptures or from the Internal Revenue Code?” But if the church is an IRS approved, tax-exempt, non-profit organization, it is no longer under the authority of Christ, its head is the IRS. How tragic. An important truth. If a pastor acts outside the authority of his church, he has no authority. Even the Lord Jesus Christ did His divine work under authority. The chief priests and scribes asked the Lord Jesus by whose authority He did His mighty works. He immediately pointed to John’s Baptism and declared the fact that it was from Heaven. Before the Lord Jesus ever began His public ministry, he walked many miles to be baptized of John the Baptist.

The Devil wants the pastors of America to come down from their pulpits and speak on the level of ordinary men with the guaranteed speech rights of the bartender, the bricklayer, the ball player, or even the common prostitute. Without the pulpit of a church, they may be a preacher, but they are not a pastor. The preachers need to go back to their pulpits, and under the authority of Almighty God and His blood-bought Church, they need to lift up the old blood stained banner of the cross and cry aloud, and lift up a moral compass and call a nation to repentance, and do it under the God-given authority of the Lord’s Church. The freedom of religion clause of the First Amendment was written to protect the church from government, not the preacher. The preacher may be protected under the free speech and assembly clauses, but the pastor is protected under the religious clause of the First Amendment. Unless the pastor goes back into his pulpit to preach “thus saith the Lord,” he has taken himself out from under that protection.

Churches should give up their tax-exempt status and begin operating as New Testament churches, even if it means losing everything. When they do, they can say as Paul the Apostle, “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ” [Phil 3:8].

I trust that my friend Pastor Wiley Drake, who came and stood with our church in our hour of trial, is successful in his lawsuit against the IRS. I hope that all of the pastors and churches that have left their God-given status as New Testament churches under the authority of Christ, with the scriptures as their final guide, to submit to the IRS as their boss and final authority, will be successful in flaunting their IRS master with their bold words, “Come and get me, I’ll do whatever I please because I have God on my side” will prevail. But they also may be like the seven silly sons of Sceva. He tried to cast out the evil spirits from a man and the evil spirit leaped on him and “he fled out of the house naked and wounded.” In fact the evil spirit said, “Jesus I know and Paul I know; but who are ye?”

Instead of lawsuits and imprecatory prayers, it might be time for pastors and churches to repent for the sins of our preacher fathers who got us into this tax-exempt scheme three generations ago, and to repent ourselves for remaining in a system that muzzles us from being the prophetic voice for God that we are supposed to be in this day and hour. I did repent and did my best to get out of this system in 1982. Thank God for the few others that have done the same. May their numbers increase in this crisis hour.

The one sermon I heard from Brother Gibbs was one of the best sermons I have ever heard. It was on Psalm 1 and the promise of "Whatsoever he doeth shall prosper", when he came here to preach in Greer, SC last 4th of July.

He is a lawyer for christian rights and his website is http://www.christianlaw.org

Love in Christ,

Jim

Hey Mongol, I found this on David Gibbs' website:

This post was last modified: Wed Mar 05, 2008 08:46 PM by Jim.

"Why doesn’t someone ask the question, “From whence does the Lord’s church get its authority – from the Holy Scriptures or from the Internal Revenue Code?” But if the church is an IRS approved, tax-exempt, non-profit organization, it is no longer under the authority of Christ, its head is the IRS. How tragic. An important truth. If a pastor acts outside the authority of his church, he has no authority. Even the Lord Jesus Christ did His divine work under authority. The chief priests and scribes asked the Lord Jesus by whose authority He did His mighty works. He immediately pointed to John’s Baptism and declared the fact that it was from Heaven. Before the Lord Jesus ever began His public ministry, he walked many miles to be baptized of John the Baptist."

"Instead of lawsuits and imprecatory prayers, it might be time for pastors and churches to repent for the sins of our preacher fathers who got us into this tax-exempt scheme three generations ago, and to repent ourselves for remaining in a system that muzzles us from being the prophetic voice for God that we are supposed to be in this day and hour. I did repent and did my best to get out of this system in 1982. Thank God for the few others that have done the same. May their numbers increase in this crisis hour. "

Thanks for taking this STAND who ever can tell you what you can do is your authority
If the LORD can tell the Church what to do, then it is the LORD's Church!!
If the IRS can tell the church what to do, then it is the irs' church!!

Corporation. An artifical person or legal entity created by or under the AUTHORITY of the LAWS of a state..... Blacks Law Dictionary Abridged 6th 1991 page 237

I worship my CREATOR All 501c3s are inc.

A CHURCH CAN ONLY BE CHRISTAIN anything else is reglign(sp)
It is always good for anything NOT Christain to be inc 501c3

Quote:
Your contribution to CLA is 501©(3) tax deductible.

I hate to be able to say this but thease groups are a big part of the problem

One more thing An artifical person can have NO rights
Only natural persons can have rights and then only thouse we know about and clame.

Bro. Harold

ps. How does the Quote thing work when I hilite and click on it I lose the text.

This post was last modified: Thu Mar 06, 2008 03:16 AM by Harold.

I'm not sure if the reference to 501c3 is a slam against CLA or not. If it is not, please ignore the following:

CLA (Christian Law Association) is not a church. It therefore has none of the protections of a church under the law outside of using some type of corporation. Using 501c3 is correct because it best suits that ministry.

It would be good for anyone looking for how to run a Christian operation to look into this Godly ministry. David Gibbs, Jr. is one of the most Godly men I have ever had the opportunity to get to know. Along with listening to his wisdom from the podium on many occasions, I have spent a (6 hour) dinner with him and several others and listened to him detail countless times when God's intervention solved some legal issue for a church. With his encouragement and leadership, I have joined with him and a number of others praying through the night over the burdens being carried by faithful churches in our country. I would count it an honor to be responsible to wash his car, mow his yard, carry his briefcase, or drive his car for him so that he might have a few moments to rest or do some more preparation for the next trial. Our church has happily supported this ministry on a monthly basis for years.

David Gibbs III is a brilliant young legal missionary. Under his leadership, CLA has responded to countless needs within the Christian family. He personally took a major role in trying to fight for the life of Terri Shivo here in Florida.

CLA's ministry of representing churches and Christians WITHOUT charge has been possible through the faithful support of many people, some who use the 501c3 status as a way of aiding them in controlling how their money is used. More power to them.

Rant ended.

Let me clarify my raspberry to Mongol. My post was showing that the fact any contributions were deductable according to churches classified as 501©3. Tongue in cheek to his comments about churches who were classified as 501©3.

My comments were definitely not a slam against CLA, I dearly love Dr. Gibbs and greatly repsect his ministry and willingness to defend the christian faith in the judicial system.

Just making sure my point was clear. I feel I can get away with puns towards those whom I love.

I'm sorry, Jim, I am a little (lot) slow sometimes with the puns. I was actually directing my statement toward this quote: (typos/spelling not editted)

No shame brother, I knew from where you were coming.

To a point yes
I know we have a large difference in understanding and \ or belief in what is right or how things need to be done.

My point here is we are not to seek protections from the law but from GOD all work is to be done by the workings of the Church. If they not under a local Church they are not proper.

I see “Christian operation” is a good use of words here. Church v Operation

My daughter followed this case and this proves him and all of CLA are good Lawyers and fight for good things.
But as Lawyers they have learned to trust the laws more than GOD. And teach outhers to do the same.

We see this as BIG lawyers not charging.
Ministries or Churches should NEVER charge to do what GOD has called us to do
Those who work for GOD are always worthy of support money it should always be gifts NEVER pay. (big difference just check IRS code)


I know my ideas are strange to most peoples thinking.
I am not seeking agreement just understanding where I am coming from as it is difficult to discuss things with understanding what each other is saying.

Bro. Harold

Amen! Here's a lawmaker that has some "guts":

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.a...hUnde16804

Too bad there weren't any MEN that would take this stand. Hmmmm......