Brother Nate, if you will go back through the thread there has been no mention of the King james Bible being the only preserved Bible. It is being presented as being preserved in the English language. I don't believe that anyone here will argue that the Bible has not been inspired and preserved for the Germans, Spanish speaking or any other language in the world.

In Christ,
George

George, if you go back to posts 70-72 & 76-78, then you will see where the sentiment was made or at least implied that the KJV is not just for the English speaking people but everybody.

Wacko signing on briefly:

Yes, the KJB is the only Bible in any modern language that is claimed by many to be perfect today. There is no other Bible in any other modern language that makes that claim as far as I know. There are some (not many) good efforts, but none are supported (by any measurable group) to be perfect.

We have covered the reasoning for the fact that the KJB holds this unique position in other forum areas, so I am not going to repeat in full. Simply put, most modern languages do not have someone or a group that has the necessary skills to mount such an effort. Instead, an attempt is made to get across as much as is possible, at least covering the basic doctrines. Sadly, many efforts begin with the wrong foundation and/or method and are therefore doomed to remain flawed. Most of all, there are many of us that believe that God has ordained that the KJB be established as the standard by which any Modern version is to be measured, English or otherwise. Time will prove me right or wrong. As for any of the others, which has withstood the test of time up until now?

Rather than attempt to accurately translate the entire Scriptures, efforts should be made to present the basics, and develop the English skills of those who desire to grow further. This has many benefits including opening access to the massive amount of resources, sermons, etc that are in English, as well as opening the learner to the opportunities that knowing the English language affords in today's world.

Again I defer to my brother James in Mongolia for direct testimony about working with foreign languages and the KJB.

I want to address the NIV issue at a later point, Nate.

Wacko signing off.

P.S. GreekTim, hold onto your money. I have ordered the book because I am interested in seeing the man's point-of-view. If it is worthy, I will forward it to you. Also, reading someone's work is not a contradiction in our position any more than it would be for me to listen to your preaching and read your blogs (and posts for that matter) which I have. The whole body should be working together to edify one another. When the ideas contradict or diminish the Scriptures, that is when the line is drawn. Sadly, much scholarship/intellectualism today does just that.

Thanks Brother Tim, I appreciate the offer.

Greektim said:

Amazing how after over 200 posts, this is the first time this has come to light. Your stance has always been that there is no "best English bible out there".

Folks, there is a great problem with "christians" today. It is called intellectualism. It is placing ones head-learning above Jesus Christ. And that is exactly what has started the debate over the bible (yes, I am talking about the English KJV we have)

Do you know what the difference between a trained monkey and an untrained monkey is? Nothing, they are both monkeys, except one has been trained or indoctrinated. And yes, the two terms are interchangeable.

All higher learning is nothing more than an attempt in indoctrination. No, I am not rejecting all higher-learning. I am rejecting any higher learning that puts us on a perceived higher plane that feels like we have the right to reject faith and common sense over intellect.

God gave us common sense, and that is how the bible was given to us, for a COMMON man to understand. It does not need to be dissected by arrogant intellectualists, which by the way, are in more danger than they realize. It does not need to be understood by men with higher IQ's.

It is a representation of love from our Lord God to let us know that along with faith, we have a written Word from Him, to guide and direct us throughouth these bitter times.

These arguments are leading us nowhere. My mind will not change. The King James Version of the English bible IS the preserved Word of God. End of argument.

I am about ready to start being a little harsh again, and I am not worried about what any of you think or feel about. If you think harshness does not glorify God and you are ready to judge me for it, maybe you all ought to start looking at where these arguments and discussions between each other are leading you in your spiritual life. Yes, I am included in on that. Maybe you ought to start doing some self-examination.

If you took even a fraction of the time talking about what the bible says and how it applies to YOU, instead of what you THINK it should say, or even scrapping it because it does not agree with what you THINK it says in Greek, then you probably wouldn't be having these arguments, but be replacing it with how awesome God is and be on your face in sackcloth and ashes wondering why He loves wretched sinners like us!

Of course some of us won't look at it that way, won't listen to anything I am saying, but take it as a personal attack, and I am waiting for that to be my answer, and completely disregard their responsibility toward Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Actually my stance has always been that there is no perfect translation. But I think the Ryrie NASB is the best Bible out there (mainly cause the NASB is my preferred translation & Dr. Ryrie's study Bible is the most consistent w/ my views). So nothing really has changed on my side of things.

Again, I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I am just defending my view.

That was not as harsh as I was expecting. You are correct in that debate for debate's sake is not edifying. Debate for pride's sake is definitely not edifying. Debate for truth is what should be sought after. I hope that is what we are always trying to do. Ultimately, you are right Jim, that truth should cause us to humility and worship. I have been challenged by all of this to keep the main thing the main thing. Even though I love the debate, I have to remember why I am here - to bring God glory. If that has been lost in the mix of all this, then I ask for forgiveness from my brothers. God knows my heart and He has convicted me many a time when my pride has taken over in these discussions.

If we need to end this discussion, then by all means let's end it for righteousness sake.

Is there anything else that needs to be said???

Brother Jim:
Relying on intellect above Christ is a danger in Christianity. I applaud your love for the Word of God, which is our written guide from Him through our days on earth. However, simply because a Christian enjoys reading a different translation and studies Greek does not mean he or she has placed their learning above Christ, rejected faith, or common sense. In fact, study of the Word could only bring them growth in the walk with Christ! I submit that our Lord not only gave us common sense, but also gave us our intellect and that studying the original language could only enhance our understanding of a passage. This is why I’m confused as to why you’re taking issue with such study. I completely agree that God gave us common sense and intended His Word be understood by the common man. Which is precisely why I read the NIV, NKJV, and NASB.

I am not attempting to change your mind in this discussion. Rather my goal is to help those who hold views like your own to understand the road that the Lord has brought me along and how other versions have been of benefit to me. If you do not wish to read them, so be it, I respect your choice and I’m glad you cherish the KJV so deeply. However, I do not believe it is your place to expect the same choice from other believers and question their faith if they disagree. We aren’t debating a foundational doctrine of the faith so surely we can continue the conversation with civility?

Greektim, I find this a rather interesting statement that is directly contradicted by the things you have posted here. A defense is stating your case or beliefs and then leaving the entire matter in the hands of the "jury" to determine whether they believe it or not.

You have been involved in far more than a defense. In fact your posting borders on, if not truly is, an argument. You may deny this fact but take a look at the definition of the word argument, and no, you need not look it up in the Greek:

Argument
'ARGUMENT, n. [L. argumentum.]

1. A reason offered for or against a proposition, opinion, or measure; a reason offered in proof, to induce belief, or convince the mind; followed by for or against.

Aha! A reason offered...convince the mind. That my friend is trying to change people's beliefs. You have come here and continually attacked many of our core beliefs about the Bible. It is completely wrong of you and no matter your statement to the contrary you have been trying to convince us your stance is the correct one. Otherwise why would you counter each post made in defense of the King James Bible with some statement or concept that your way is the correct way. You have been trying to convince us of this for many days.

Please understand I do not mean this as a personal attack on you but rather my viewpoint on what you are doing here. I have no doubt you are a fine young man. I just believe you have been misguided. That is my opinion and I stick to it.

You will not convince me to either change my mind or to accept your views. I doubt there is really anyone else here you will convince either. It just won't happen. You are beating the proverbial "dead horse." My goodness, when Psalm 12:6 was brought up you wanted to start a new thread so that you could counter our beliefs on that verse also.

I am not going to force you to but I suggest you consider going to some site where you can be with people that have the same belief structure you do. I believe you will enjoy it more but then perhaps you won't because you won't have anyone to argue with.

In Christ,
George

Ah, this old, tired statement pops up again! The idea that the modern "versions" of the Bible are easier to read and understand than the King James is completely false. Some time back a Flesch-Kinkade ease of reading test was done on various versions of the Bible. Of the English Bibles tested the King James Bible came in with the lowest score meaning it is easier to read and understand than the others that were tested. In fact the King James Bible requires only about a 5th grade reading level to be understood.

In Christ,
George

I fear any response will be negatively recieved. If I am silent, then it is percieved that I have conceded. If I make a response, then I am taken as argumentative. What am I to do???

I do not believe I have attacked your views. Perhaps challenged, but not attacked. You must also remember that I did not initiate discussions on the KJV. That is why I maintained a defense not an attack.

As to changing peoples views, if you recall post #7 of my entry into the new members thread, you will see I never expected views to be changed, yours or mine. That was set off gate.

I have often wondered why there is no mention of the KJV in the statement of faith. Had that been there, then I would not have been able to say I agree with the statement of faith and would not have signed up as a member. I wonder if it was left unsaid so that there might be a few in here like Nate & myself to have these discussions. I cannot say because I cannot read minds. But it might be a good idea to add it to your statement of faith so as to avoid these kind of issues. If you are looking for a good way to get rid of me w/o having to ban me, then that is a sure-fire way to do it. However, I hope that does not take place b/c I enjoy this forum very much.

I, too, enjoy this forum and discussion with Christians brothers. My best friend all the way back from 3rd grade was a KJV-only and his views on many things were very different from mine, including this one. The great thing was that we could debate those issues where we differed at high school age and disagree vigorously, yet rarely was there any offense taken. Why? We knew beyond any doubt that the other was a brother in Christ who had a sincere desire for the truth and growth in his Christian walk. With that knowledge, I could allow him to have different convictions than my own. I was hoping to duplicate those discussions here with differing views coming to understanding of one another. Since it appears there is no desire for such discussion on this particular subject, I will avoid addressing it in the future. On to other subjects!

This post was last modified: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:38 PM by Nate.

Yes Brother, perhaps that would be best. Let us go on to other things before this thread deteriorates any farther.

In Christ,
George

Brethren, this is truly the most serious of issues. The reality is that we are each attempting to change another's mind or belief. I can certainly say that for myself. The fact is that there is nothing wrong with doing so. This is a crucial issue for the church today. If I viewed my belief as simply one opinion among many, then I would speak differently. We witness to the lost because we know that they are heading toward destruction. We commanded to do so. We also "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints" because we are commanded to do so.

There are basically two camps, in my observation:

One believes that God, in His eternal purpose to make available to the saints every word by which they are to live, has preserved His Words in a single source that can be used as the standard by which all doctrine is to be compared. That this source is complete and without error is absolute by its very definition; it is the Final Authority. I know of no other book that is viewed in this way but the King James Bible.

The second camp believes in varying degrees that the Word of God is available in multiple sources, none of which completely agree or match any other. Some see preservation as a man-made idea, while others view preservation as applying only to the manuscripts and their copies. Preservation is not seen as crossing the language barrier. For this reason, no present Bible in any language is viewed as the Final Authority.

While some may describe the above camps differently, and as always there are shades of gray, I think that the two groupings show the most basic points of challenge.

I'm posting this part, while I continue to compose my thoughts.

Nate and George posted while I was on my previous post, so I want to comment on those before I continue with my previous thoughts.

The key to our discussions is that we each respect the others as being sincere in their beliefs, though necessarily viewed as being wrong. If we were discussing Chevy vs Ford, then we might still have a lively or even heated discussion, but it would be childish. What we are discussing here could make the difference for someone between accepting or rejecting the Bible as God's Word rather than man's best attempt to portray God's Word.

While the disagreements may be strong, it is imperative that none of us "take offense" at anything said by another. I can get just as wound up as the next guy, so I am warning myself as well. If the discussion is getting your blood pressure up, go take a walk and pray a bit. This is my pattern while posting, which is why sometimes I get leap-frogged by another post. If things are too hot, leave the discussion altogether. For me, the issue is too crucial to let go.

to be continued...