I dont think Luther has the monopoly on this.

This explains the reasoning behind your doctrinal views you have been stating.

James,

I think your last reply to me says it all.

You go to mass because you love the service, rather than the Lord, and so that you can loaf around on the Lord's day and go shopping, rather than meeting with the Lord and the Lord's people.

The title of this thread is The immaculate conception. I am pasting a list of RCC practices, and when there were instituted. You will see that the immaculate conception is a fairly recent invention, 152 years ago. The assumption is only 56 years old. Every one of them is a reason why believers should not work with Romanists.


Roman Catholic Practices AND THE APPROXIMATE DATES OF THEIR INSTITUTION

Baptism as a saving ordinance in the year A.D. 150
Infant baptism 225
The Lord's Supper as an elaborate sacramental sacrifice 250
Prayers for the dead , 300
Making the sign of the cross 300
Worship in Latin language 600
Temporal, political power of the Pope 754
Worship of Mary and Saints 788
Worship of the cross, images, and relics 788
False Decretals of Isidore 847 [forged]
Donation of Constantine 858 [forged]
Baptism of bells 965
Fasting on Fridays and in Lent 998
Fabrication of holy water 1000
Rosary beads 1090
Money for masses 1100
Enforced celibacy of priests 1123
The Inquisition 1184
Sale of indulgences 1190
Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215
Auricular confession of sins to the priest 1215
Adoration of the wafer 1220
The Roman Church as the only Catholic Church 1303
Cup denied to laymen (Council of Constance) 1415
Purgatory (proclaimed) 1438
Unscriptural decrees of the Council of Trent 1545
Tradition equal in authority to the Bible 1545
Justification by works and not by faith alone 1545
Apocryphal books added to the Bible 1545
Invention of scapulars, medals, edible religious stamps 1600
Immaculate Conception of Mary 1854
Infallibility of the Pope 1870
Papal usurpation of right in mixed marriages 1908
Assumption of Mary 1950

Davo,

The Saturday Vigil Mass counts as Sunday or the Lord's Day worship because it has the same readings from the Bible as does Sunday Morning Mass. Why don't Protestant Churches want to have Saturday Vigil Services for their members who do not wish to get up on Sunday Morning to attend church?

What am I supposed to do if I do not like the non liturgical worship services that Fundamentalist and Evangelical Churches have? Attend them anyway and be misserable the whole time? Another thing that I do not like about Fundamentalist and Evangelical Churches is that everybody is expected to engage in interpersonal communication face to face with other individuals. I am not that comfortable engaging in interpersonal communication face to face with individuals and I like to just sit in the back of the church and not communicate with anybody. I wish to be left alone when I go to church.

When I only participate in the scriptural parts to the Mass I am worshipping Christ in a scriptural manner because the scriptural parts to the Mass are scriptural.

If one has received Jesus as Saviour and He has always promised to be there for His child at ALL TIMES, why would anybody need to pray to some inferior source?

The 'jesus' of the Catholic Church, tragically, is unable to help his own. He needs Mary, the Saints, Jose Maria Escriva and even the lolly-pop man's help - what a tragic mess!

jgb321,

I only pray to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I pray to Christ every night when I go to bed and rededicate my life to Him and ask Him for forgiveness of any sins that I may have committed during the day. I pray to God the Father every night also and ask that the irregular heart rate and the high blood pressure is kept under control. I pray to the Holy Trinity when I pray the Glory Be Prayer which is the prayer to the Holy Trinity. I do not ask for the intercession of the Virgin Mary and the Saints. I believe that Christ is the only mediator between God and Man. I only worship Christ. And when I only participate in the scriptural parts to the Mass I am worshipping Christ scripturally since the scriptural parts to the Mass are scriptural.

Davo --

You have posted the tired, shop worn "list of invetions" which was first published, if I remember right, by the anti-catholic Lorraine Boettner. This is a sad pack of outright lies and distortions.

It has been refuted by many. Here is just one site that answers these distortions:

EXAMINING PROTESTANTISM

I don't suppose you will bother to do any research on this, as your mind is obviously made up and you don't care a whit about actual facts. But I thought I'd publish it anyway.

Brother Ed

Hey Robert,

It's one of your fellow catholic friends, I am sure you two will have a lot to discuss

Hey DefensorFidei, read your fellow catholic friend Robert's posts, do you agree with his viewpoints?

Jim

Baptism as a saving ordinance in the year A.D. 150

Completely at odds with scripture. St. Paul taught that baptism washes sin away. Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. That sounds like baptismal salvation to me.

Also sounds like Boettner is a liar.

Infant baptism 225

Once again, a plain and clear lie. Instructions for the baptism of infant children were being given to the Church as early as 115AD. Boettner has borne false witness again. But what's that when you can trash the Church that you hate?

The Lord's Supper as an elaborate sacramental sacrifice 250

Again, this is entirely made up of whole cloth. Writings show the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist as early as 115AD.

Prayers for the dead , 300

Wrong again. Writings in the catacombs which date back to the middle and late part of the second century include prayers to believers who have passed on, and requests that those who read the writings pray for the one leaving them there

Making the sign of the cross 300

Worship in Latin language 600

This is so nonsensical it is beyond belief. Latin was the common language of the Roman empire. They did not speak Greek, Indian, Urdu, or Aramaic in Rome. Mr. Boettner sure has some strange ideas, doesn't he?

Temporal, political power of the Pope 754
Worship of Mary and Saints 788

Not that this matters to anti-catholic bigots, but not only do we not "worship" the Blessed Virgin and the saints who have preceeded us, we are forbidden to do so.

Worship of the cross, images, and relics 788

We venerate and pay honor to the Cross of our Lord, upon which He paid for our sins.

False Decretals of Isidore 847 [forged]
Donation of Constantine 858 [forged]
Baptism of bells 965
Fasting on Fridays and in Lent 998

Wrong again. Fasting goes back much much further than 998. Honestly, did Boettner, in his extreme haste to write nasty stuff about the Church, ever actually READ any secular history of the Church and Her practices?

BTW -- find me any passage in which Jesus condemned fasting. As a pious and devout Jew, obedient to all the Law, Jesus would have fasted on Tuesdays and Thursdays, as was the custom.

Fabrication of holy water 1000
Rosary beads 1090
Money for masses 1100
Enforced celibacy of priests 1123
The Inquisition 1184
Sale of indulgences 1190
Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215

Wrong again. Go back and read St. Augustine's writings. You will see tha that the common and universal belief of the Church, both East and West, was that the elements become the very Body and Blood of the Lord. There was never any other belief in the Church. The idea that the elements are not the Body and Blood of the Lord is a pecularity to Protestantism, a man made religion made up in the 16th century by X Catholic rebels against the Church

PS....what doeth the scriptures say in regards to how God views rebellion?

Auricular confession of sins to the priest 1215

Since Jesus gave to Peter and the apostles the ability to bind and loose sins, doesn't the merest of common sense tell you that in order to forgive sins, they had to hear the sins from the sinner?????

Common sense apparently was not a biggie for Mr. Boettner either.

Adoration of the wafer 1220
The Roman Church as the only Catholic Church 1303

This is patently untrue also. The Catholic Church consists of 27 different cultural varients of the Faith, such as the Ruthenians, the Copts, the Mar Thoma, the Marionites, the Melkites, etc. All are every bit as Catholic as the Romans. Rome is simply where the headquarters is.found

Cup denied to laymen (Council of Constance) 1415
Purgatory (proclaimed) 1438
Unscriptural decrees of the Council of Trent 1545

Wrong again. The unscriptural decrees came from the Protestants who managled the Bible in order to justify their rebellion against the Church our Lord set on earth under the authority of the office of St. Peter. And it doesn't take a genius to look at the doctrinal chaos and confusion in Protestantism to tell that the Holy Spirit was obviously not leading this charge.

Tradition equal in authority to the Bible 1545
Justification by works and not by faith alone 1545

That is because justification is NOT by faith alone. St. James makes it abundantly clear in his epistle that "faith alone" is D*E*A*D. Or would you prefer to finish the work Luther couldn't and strike that book from the canon of the scriptures?

Robert Sungenis was raised a Roman Catholic, left the Church and became a Presbyterian Calvinist minister for almost 20 years, and then returned to the Church. He has written a systematic DESTRUCTION
of the lie that is "faith alone" called NOT BY FAITH ALONE. It runs over 700 pages and uses scripture to show how the Reformers tortured and twisted the scritpures to fool the simple into believing that faith alone could save a person.

Apocryphal books added to the Bible 1545

Wrong still again. The apocryphal books were in the original KJV 1611 AV. Did you know that? The Reformers took them out because they support certain Catholic doctrines and they were desparately trying to destroy the Church and her teachings.

Invention of scapulars, medals, edible religious stamps 1600
Immaculate Conception of Mary 1854
Infallibility of the Pope 1870

One more error. Jesus told us in Matthew 16: 18 - 19 that the Church would NEVER be overrun by the gates of hell. How could that happen unless there was an office of leadership which was protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching doctrinal and moral error?

The fact that you are a Trinitarian and orthodox in your understanding of the Trinity and the natures of Christ is specifically because the Catholic Church defended orthodoxy from the heretics like Bishop Arias. Had it not been for the Catholic Church that you despize so much, you would be an Arian heretic and on your way to hell.

Papal usurpation of right in mixed marriages 1908
Assumption of Mary 1950


I have answered what I could. But just a couple of these answers shows that Lorraine Boettner did not know Church history, did not have a proper understanding of scripture, and for convenience's sake, lied through his teeth in order to lash out at the Catholic Church.

Brother Ed

Agree with him?

I think not......

The whole Mass is scriptural. He needs to do some serious study of the Cathollic Faith and recover himself.

I get the feeling he is like many Catholics who were not properly catechized as kids. Either that, or he fell asleep in CCD classes.

Brother Ed

Yes, this is a very accurate statement! We cannot emphasize enough getting to youth quickly enough.

Here is a man that saw this as a critical point to his success:

Read more here about this imperative faction:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hi...index.html

Jim

Brother Ed

I have never read Boettner's book, although I did borrow it once, but never got around to reading it.

I got my information from a book Secrets of Romanism by Joseph Zacchello a converted Romanist priest.

I guess Boettner wrote sometime in the 1930's. However, you don't have to go that modern. If you were to read Platina's List of the Popes, written sometime about 1100-1200 AD, you will find that he lists the Popes, and then mentions what things this or that Pope added. As it was many years ago that I read it, I cannot remember individual items, but I'm sure you will find some on the list.

Regards

What a charming and intelligent answer, Jim.

Compare Catholicism to Adolph Hitler.

My.....how thoughtful.

Of course, you wouldn't admit that you Fundamentalists do the same thing with your kids. You just don't have a catechism, do you? But I know the drill. Pound Bible verses into their heads day and night, world without end, amen.

I know.


Been there.....done that.


Brother Ed

Well actually I do very much teach them bible verses. I don't really call it "pounding", but I believe in teaching them early. I call it "bringing them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord".

So what's wrong with surrounding them with bible? It is the catechism that is wrong, not the bible.

I wasn't comparing catholicism to Hitler, just the mode of indoctrinating the youth to keep them from realizing the truth.

Papal infallibility was assumed for years, it was formally include as RC doctrine in Vatican I in 1870.

Babylon Mystery Religion by Ralph Woodrow

I didn't have to look very long to find what I needed:

Because of errors, Ralph Woodrow removed his well-known book, "Babylon Mystery Religion" from print. He replaced it with this book to correct historical errors. In a Woodrow vs. Woodrow format, Ralph Woodrow points out weaknesses of his former book, "Babylon Mystery Religion," much of which was based on Alexander Hislop's "Two Babylons", who had contrived much of his so-called historical data.

In other words

HE LIED!!!!

So what else is new? That was the one constant I found over and over and over again when I put aside my prejudices and began to really study the historical roots of Christianity.

LIES, MORE LIES, and JUST PLAIN OLD LIES about the Catholic Faith.

Everything from men stating that the Early Fathers were ______________ (fill in your favorite Protestant denomination here) to the lies I already discussed in this thread.

Hey, guys, didn't God say something somewhere about

"Bearing false witness?"

Brother Ed