Make sure you are not using the word Uni*n

Thanks Jim. I'm not sure why that is, but it worked. This is the final part of my extremely long post that you probably are tired of hearing.

APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION CONTINUED

Here it is clear. Ignatius warned all of the believers to hold fast to the Bishop and treat him as Christ himself (not to say that he is Christ). The fact is, the bishops were taught directly by the apostles, and to avoid schisms and misunderstandings in the church it was key that there was a solitary source in which one could get the truth about doctrine. The bishops, as the apostles, were entrusted with that authority and duty.

Again, he admonishes the believers to do nothing without the bishop. He instructed unity, for only unity could protect the believers from outside heresy.

I will stop quoting for now, because I’m sure you grow tired of my endless typing. The reason for these quotes is simple: Ignatius was taught by the apostle John, and was alive before the New Testament was even finished. All he had to go on was what he was taught from the apostles before him. And, clearly, apostolic succession and church authority were taught to Ignatius. To say otherwise is to admit that the Church went horribly wrong immediately after the apostles and didn’t right itself until, presumably you’d say, Martin Luther came along.

I apologize for the length of my post. Please bear with me. Remember, you are asking deep theological questions, and I cannot dignify them with trite answers. I believe what I wrote was necessary to show my point.

Also, I’d love to answer all of your questions, but I’ve spent over an hour typing this reply and only can do so much at once. Bear with me, I will address what I can as it comes along.

Peace to you all.

I must admit, I see no conclusion as to the lack of authority for any of the apostles to choose successors of their own choosing. It seems they all had that right/ability to confer on whom they please.

You have just stated though that you do not intent to broach the pastoral passage from Peter, and as I have been mulling over this subject in which you have given, I see that this seems ot be the central basis for this argument in particular. I will start another topic on Peter himself, as he seems to be the focal point.

Brother Ed,

If sinless perfection is not the standard to get into heaven then what is?

If sinless perfection is not the standard to get into heaven then why did Christ have to die and impute His own righteousness to our account?

Our own righteousness is inadequate and we need God's own righteousness.

And lastly,

Nothing sinful will enter into heaven which equals sinless perfection.

MNW

Exactly.

Jim, actually what I was talking about in my earlier posts was kind of an adjunct to this "works vs grace" discussion in that I wanted to show that works have a very serious part to play in the obtaining of eternal life.

However, as I posted in an earlier post, works do not get us into the kingdom of God, do not make us adopted children of God by grace through faith, and cannot bring us into the New Covenant.

So the real issue here is again:

Is "salvation" the same as "eternal life?"

Your answer, of course, would be yes.

My answer is no, they are not. They are two entirely different things. Let's start with salvation.

To be "saved" is to be taken from the general condemnation of all mankind that we have as children of Adam (Rom 5:12). As such, we are born into the family of Adam, which family is separated from God by Adam's sin. When Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden, the whole human race walked out in his loins with him. Thus we are under the condemnation of his sin -- even if we do not sin as babies -- because we are separated from God.

Thus, we need a New Adam to restore the human race to uni*n with God. Jesus is called the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45), a term not without significance and meaning. As the last Adam, He, as a man like Adam, reunites the human race to God. However, unlike our relationship with Adam, we must be put "in Christ". Agreed?

Being "in Adam" is separation and death. Being "in Christ" is uni*n and life.

Salvation is being put into the family of God through the work of Christ on the Cross. It is really that simple.

However, God describes the kingdom in familial terms. He is Father. Jesus is the Son, or in our case, our Elder Brother, since He is the "firstborn among many". Since God has defined membership in the kingdom in a familial way, then we need to look to the family to see how what we know of families appilies to our relationship with God.

One of the things we do understand is the concept of inheritance. Fathers leave their children inheritances. Good and faithful children receive those inheritances, but evil children who disobey the family rules and bring scandal upon the family will be disinherited. This is true not so much in America, but we can still see it in the Middle East, where Muslims who convert are disowned and persecuted by the family for shaming it in the community.

Our inheritance is the same one that was set aside for Adam and his posterity IF Adam had not sinned:

It was God's plan to have a race of beings who were partakers of the divine nature, beginning with Adam himself. To be a partaker of the divine nature is part of having eternal life. Eternal life is not a thing -- it is a Person -- God. He ALONE hath immortality the scriptures say, yet he is willing to share a part of His divine nature which gives us eternal life. Our uni*n with Him gives us this life eternal.

Adam lost the family inheritance. I believe that had Adam passed the test and resisted eating the forbidden fruit, he could have lived forever after being given the fruit of the Tree of Life. But He lost it. Jesus, however, as the Last Adam, by His obedience, even unto death, gained back that inheritance for us. And as the Elder Brother of the New Covenant, He gives that inheritance to all who come to Him. (Remember, in covenant, the oldest administers the blessings of the father to all under him!)

We have now an "earnest" (ever hear the term "earnest money"?) of our inheritance. That is, a downpayment.

The Holy Spirit is the downpayment of the inheritance, which is eternal life. In order to receive the full inheritance at the judgment, we must "keep covenant" with our Father. This is was doing works is. It is our way of keeping the covenant and being obedient children. This is why (back to our earlier discussion) the scriptures I pointed out stressed that we will all be judged by our works on the Judgment Day.

It is not to see if we are saved. It is to see if we have been good, faithful, covenant keeping children who receive the inheritance. And you know, as I think of it, you may be right. Just as there are degrees of obedience and reward, I think there could be judgment of the believers not only unto eternal life, but at the same time, unto the crowns you spoke of.

So.....it is not works that saves. But it is works that keeps us saved -- or to say it more biblically, IN THE COVENANT OF GOD.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Again, this is talking about our initial salvation and not eternal life, or eternal uni*n with God. It is saying that we cannot enter ourselves into the covenant of God by our deeds.

This is talking about the Jewish law, and specifically the rite of circumcision, which Christ set aside. The rite of circumcision was a covenant making rite which entered one into the kingdom of God on earth, the Jewish theocratic kingdom. It was replaced with the death of Christ and the New Covenant replaces the Old. This is again an issue of how we get into the kingdom, not how we get eternal life. The Jews were depending upon their circumcision to get them into the kingdom. St. Paul sets that aside.

Does not the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, make me sinless? As I partake of the Blood of Christ, does that not take care of my sins?

But the word "perfect" is not in that verse. You are assuming that and reading it into that verse.

Thanks for good questions.

Hope this good conversation continues.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed