Brother Tim & Jim,

Here's some food for thought: Preservation/inspiration go hand-n-hand. The Lord is not going to preserve "uninspired" scripture. EVERY place in the Bible (KJB) the word scripture is used indicates copies, not originals of anything. The KJ translators very seldom referred to the TR's (appx 15 different ones), but preferred to use the vernacular Bibles then in existence. Our Lord being omniscient and omnipotent, knew what time to finish preservation (1604-1611) due to the English Crown controlling most of the known world at the time. What a missionary endeavor! Also, the King James English is the PINNACLE of the English language. We are digressing, and speaking gutter slang today (in the mv's) compared to the KJ English. I'm glad The Lord chose the universal end-time language to preserve His word in. Less than 1/10th of 1% of the world speaks Greek or Hebrew. These scholars/pastors who think only the Greek/Hebrew are the word of God - why do they even bother with English? Hmmmm...... They're hypocrites. Congregations see this hypocrisy, and leave churches in droves. I think Bro George indicated on another thread, that this is one of the reasons Bible reading/study has dropped, percentage-wise, because there is no assurance of FINAL AUTHORITY. Most "scholars" can't agree on anything - they're constantly changing their minds! The Lord is much smarter than the "scholars", and has preserved his word in a very descriptive language, that far surpasses Classical Greek or Hebrew - ENGLISH. Koine Greek has been dead for over 800 years. There are no Greek scholars today (or Greek lexicons/dictionaries) that have the ability to give the proper definition of the KOINE Greek the TR's were written in, in their proper context. That's why the KJ translators used the vernacular Bibles, not the TR's. I've asked Greek missionaries, and have 3 close Greek-speaking friends, Sam Kerhulas, Pete Leventis, and Paul Kicidis, that have told me they have NO IDEA what Koine Greek definitions are accurate. Classical Greek can't define Koine Greek in PROPER context. THE LORD KNEW THIS. That's why Greek/Hebrew worshipping is "Nehushtan" - just as 2 Kings 18:4 speaks of the Israelites worshipping the brasen serpent. We are in a NEW TESTAMENT, exactly as The Lord told the Apostle Paul - grace, instead of law; new language, instead of the old 3; new mysteries (Rom 16:25), instead of old, and many others.

The Hebrew has about 460,000 word variations (nouns, axioms, verbs, idioms, etc)
The Greek has a few more, about 480,000.
My English has over a MILLION - now which one do you think is more descriptive?
My Lord KNEW that English would be the end-time language. He also knew that the original "manuscriptolater" (Gen 3:1) would attack the word of God as always, with "scholarship". Sometimes, I wonder if some of the "scholars" that attack the Bible(KJB) aren't really jesuits. They sure act like it - "Oh, you can't know the word of God accurately, because you don't know Greek - you must come to me for the proper meaning." Or, "There is no perfect word of God in English." Or, "God didn't promise to preserve His word on paper" Sound familiar? If not on paper, why/what would He tell us to study? The opinions of the "scholars"?

As George, Davo, and others have pointed out - look at the fruit/results of using the KJB, versus the mv's and the mss worshippers - it sure is a BIG difference, isn't it? No wonder Jesus said "By their fruits, you'll know them."

The final answer is - you have to trust The Lord by FAITH - Heb 11:6. If you can figure out everything about the Bible (using "the latest scholarship), what part are you taking by faith? Hmmmm.........

Lastly, I'm an American - it's in my blood to "pull for the underdog" and I see nothing but pure disdain and hatred, for the Book that got me saved, and The Lord has blessed above EVERYTHING else for almost 400 years now - I'll stick with my KJB, regardless of what new mss is found, including the "ORIGINALS"!!!
How do ya like me NOW?!

Brother, I agree with all that you have said....except.....

The KJV translators almost exclusively used the TR's, more specifically, arguably Scriveners and Beza's TR's, for their translation source. Yes, they also used as many extant Byzantine/Majority Texts as they had access to, but the TR's were definitely their primary source. Yes, they did in fact use and reference english translations included in what many people consider the 7 major inclusions of the preserved line of mss's. I myself do not believe solely in this preserved lineage as some of my brothers in Christ do, but I do not argue against it. I agree with GreekTim that the only inspired scripture is the original Greek mss's, but I believe that translation from them to be preserved, if it can even be done today.

My stance is any bible that is translated faithfully from the orginals such as the Majority/Byzantine text-type and/or the TR's (Received Text), then it has the capability of being a faithful representation of God's Word, HOWEVER, as my brother in Christ has just stated, there is no known scholar who can completely and perfectly interpret koine Greek any longer, so that puts a damper on translating from the originals now. Therefore God had to make some provision for the loss of this language. And we have it in the English version of the KJV. If somone uses the KJV to translate into another language, then what do we have?

THIS is hitting the nail SQUARE on the head, because what does God say about our using faith?

If we all could just agree that the best preservation of scripture we have is the KJV today, then we shouldn't worry about chewing over the others. The bible in the KJV is perfect for my study and all that encompasses. My going back and learning all about something I feel I have already learned would be useless. I am convinced of the KJV's preservation, therefore I will study through faith and guidance of the Holy Spirit.


Love in Christ,

Jim

Guys, guys, please stay on topic. There are probably several threads where the method of producing the KJB is discussed. I jumped back over to this thread to deal with the counterfeit NKJV and its errors.
[FOR KJBOs eyes only: Remember that we are trying to get at GreekTim from so many different angles that his guard is down and the Holy Spirit can thunk him on the spirit.]
Seriously, I get lost myself tracking different topics within the same thread. Please help an old guy out, OK?

You're are correct brother.

I have made a conclusion about Greektim though. For all his "intellectual knowledge", he has annihilated faith and a basis for knowing God's Word. Since Greek is the only thing that matters to him, and we cannot completely understand koine greek ,then we no longer have the Word of God. He only believes in preservation of the Greek, yet we cannot understand it, so what's the point? There is no arguing with someone who analyzes everything to death. There is no common sense, no faith, no understanding of anything other than studious head-knowledge that gets you nowhere quick.

It just frankly amazes me that anyone can get into a discussion about a decomposed fragment of papyrus that conclusively proves nothing.

This post was last modified: Tue Apr 01, 2008 05:20 PM by Jim.

OUCH!

Bro Jim,

Agree, to a point - though the KJB translators had access to, and referenced the various TR's, they relied heavily on the vernacular Bibles, more than on the TR's. Dr Sightler & Sis Riplinger points this out and documents its credibility. Another interesting point that Dr Sightler made, in his book "A Testimony Founded Forever: The King James Bible Defended in Faith and History," is that The Lord used the churches, vice "scholars", to preserve His word!