Jay,

You said,

What was your source of education? Many modern Greek teachers use a corrupted text as the basis for translation. All modern versions use these texts all or in part, hence they are corrupted from the start. They certainly cannot all be correct, for they disagree with each other in many places. Modern versions only serve to confuse the reader and create a doubt in the preservation of God's Word for today's believer.

You said,

Did you use only God's Word to come to this conclusion, or was it rather that you accepted Bible doubters such as Mr. Wallace to establish your new-found wisdom. Woe to those teachers who plant doubts and false doctrine in the minds of seekers of the truth!

You said,

What "originals" are you understanding? No one has the originals. We have either God's providentially preserved Word available to us today, represented in the English language with the KJB, or we don't have any idea what He said, because there is no other text that has been recognized and accepted throughout history as God's Word besides the text from which the KJB was translated. There is no other Bible of ANY language that has had the worldwide effect on the lives of people than the KJB, God's Perfect Word. If that makes me dogmatic, bring on the Kibbles-n-Bits.

I received my initial biblical language education through Wingate University in the Religious Studies program. I am currently enrolled at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, NC.

The "Originals" I spoke of, are of the Hebrew and Greek which you should know are the Old and New testament original languages. The beloved KJV is precious, yet 1500 years past the age of the NT. The reason the english language translation was needed was because there wasn't a translation english speaking people could understand. Clarity of understanding was the initial purpose of the english translation then, and so it is today. Why argue for ignorance producing godliness as the Catholic church did in the 13-1500's. During this time, new Bible translations were seen as heretical and many were burned at the stake trying to produce it. I'm sure these dogmatics thought they were doing God a favor. Do you claim it heresy for all people to understand God's Word? Why not have the same desire as Wycliffe and Tyndale; translate the Bible into understandable english for even the plowboy to be able to comprehend it.

My education is limited to the areas of emphasis (Greek NT). But, with that being said, I would dare not sway a searching heart if God hadn't dealt with me first hand on this issue. Though many will attack my credentials, God knows my heart and I believe this heart is as fervent as the hearts of Wycliffe, Tyndale, and Luther in desiring that all humanity understand His Word.

If we spend as much time Soulwinning as we do arguing for a certain translation, multitudes would be won to Christ.

By the way, I love the KJV. My love for it has never wavered. My heart has only flourished in the Word since being brought to light on the need to seek the context of the Scriptures, societal impact of the word meanings, and the changes in our own language that need consideration to determine what those precious KJV phrases truly meant.

Jay

Jay,

The Greek texts that you hold are not the "originals", but are copies many times removed from them. Faith in God's promise to preserve His Words is the only foundation that you or I can have to be confident that we can hold God's Word in our hands. The Greek texts that were continuously used by the true church of God throughout history are the only source that is reliable. The Greek that the modern versions use did not exist in the church for more than 1000 years! My faith causes me to extend God's preservation of His Words, yes, every single word, into a language that today is universally read. The corruptions of the Scripture by changing the language of the KJB into the modern English FAR outweigh the usefulness gained. I have never met a person who, with the slightest bit of instruction, could not understand the English of the KJB any less than the modern corrupted versions. Bear in mind that the Scripture is understood through the Spirit and not in the flesh. Those who seek the truth with the whole heart will find it.
I do not retreat from the time and energy needed to "argue" about the translations. If the Word of God is diluted by the subtle alterations made in every one of the popular modern versions, then what kind of believer will we have. God has called me to this issue. As new believers come into our churches, they are given these watered-down, weak imitations of the Scripture, and they are stunted from birth, easily infected by the many twisted teachings that attract the unlearned.

Your interest in the Greek is admirable, and your desire to see that the truth of God's Word is understood is proper. My concern is that you, like many others, have accepted that scholarship is necessary to understand that truth. My young students not only do learn to memorize the KJB, but they also, in a child's way, can explain its meaning. The "thee's" and "thou's" give them no trouble at all.

By the way, how can you, using today's English, express the difference between the singular and plural, or accurately demonstrate the correct verb tenses, without resorting to dynamic equivalence - adding your words to create the meaning - rather than formal equivalence - letting each word speak for itself.

Certainly we must educate believers in our churches. That is the purpose of Biblical preaching. The pastor/teacher is responsible before God to teach His Words accurately and fully. Too much modern preaching is like the modern versions, weak and spiritually unfulfilling.

I encourage you to step away from the academic training, however good, that you have received, and allow the simple truths of God's Word to guide you. Then you will see what the "plowboys" throughout history have seen.

I believe it wrong to argue with you on these issues when you seemingly haven't been educated on the topic. Flattery of acadamics isn't what anyone should strive to achieve when preparing for ministry. But, there must be someone somewhere who can rightfully divide the Word of Truth if the plowboy will ever understand it. What would have happened had there never been a Wycliffe, Tyndale, or Luther. What about the forty-eight who actually translated the KJV. Were they considered heretical? Most definitely!
The only reason the KJV was so widely accepted was because it was so widely promoted.
Among the translations of the English Bible, the KJ is considered to be the 5th revision of the Tyndale Bible first published in 1526. It was revisited four times by other translators before the KJ which included names such as Miles Coverdale and John Rogers (The Coverdale, Matthews, Great, and Geneva Bibles).
The original KJ was corrected and reprinted more than two hundred times. It was never intended to be viewed as being perfect. In the preface to the "original 1611" which all KJV only's should read, it states,
"perfection is never attainable by man, but the Word of God may be recognized in the meanest translation of the Bible, just as the King's speech in parliamant remains the King's speech when translated into other languages than that in which it was spoken, even if it be not word for word, and even if some renderings are incapable of improvement." Find a copy and read it for yourself! - If you can find it!

By the way - there are no 1611's in print any more - those stopped being printed in 1612.

Some of those corrections include:
- The Judas Bible - Matt 26:36 had "Judas" coming to the place called Gethsemane
- The Hoopes Bible - Using Hoopes instead of Hookes in the erection of the Tempple
- The "Sin On" Bible - John 5:14 had Jesus saying "sin on more" instead of "sin no more.
- The Vinegar Bible - 1716 Bible had the title of "The Parable of the Vinegar" instead of the "Parable of the Vineyard"
- 1792 edition had "Philip"denying the Lord three times instead of "Peter"
- "Murderer's Bible" - Mark 7:27 said Jesus told the Syro-phoenician woman to, "let the children first be killed" instead of "filled."

God's word is perfect, man's translation of it, is not, always!

It would surely be a sad world to live in, if the KJV was the only Bible that would correctly portray God's Word to lost people to the saving of their soul. My brothers and sisters in foreign lands would be "up the creek without their translation of the King James Bible."

Oh how rediculous to claim one man's political translation (KJ) of the Word of God to be the only acceptable translation to modern man. I wonder when I stand in the pulpit to preach the Word from the Nestle-Aland Greek text, if some dogmatic some where would say I was leading my flock astray.



Sometimes we mix up God's calling with an allegiance to our heritage of upbringing.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

Let not others tell us what way it has "always been," but study for ourselves as God gives us guidance.


One last thing on this issue. - When I preach out of my KJ Bible, I don't just read the text and dismiss; I elaborate on the thoughts of the text so as to bring the message of the Word "home to the heart of the hearer." As long as we are people of verbal communication, there will always be a need for clarification and explanation. Our society is truly people of differing academic levels. With this being said, we must make the text say what it said back then, so as to allow the people of today to understand what that means now.

I pray the Lord blesses someone with these words,
Jay

Jay, have you become the fool mentioned in this verse? It appears that way to me. Here is what you said:

First of all I am one of those "plowboys" you so high mindedly spoke of. You have placed yourself above others by using that word. You consider yourself to be better than others in that you consider them and me "plowboys." You appear to be really full of yourself.

There IS someone who rightfully divides the Truth for me. Believe me it is not the likes of someone like you who has the attitude you are above others. That someone is called the Holy Spirit of God!

There you have it. The Holy Spirit of God will teach me ALL things. I do not need the likes of an arrogant man like you.

In Christ,
George

I'm sorry if the words I've shared have offended you. I believe you have received these thoughts in error. I will not continue to argue these issues with those who drudgingly refute higher learning simply because it is such. Paul was a man of higher learning, whom when he accepted Christ as his Savior became the great evangelist of the NT.

Again, I'm sorry if you've been offended. Let's agree to disagree!

Have a great day in the Lord tomorrow,
Jay

I pray that you don't think that is the same reason that Jesus would be so "widely accepted".

Sir, I have seen folks like you come and go. Not that I am intentionally meaning to be critical or anything, but it always ends in the same way. A man bears his intellect with such proclamation, that there is no room for "rightly dividing the Word of truth". There is dividing alright, but the only validation it promotes is against ones ability to decipher intellectually what that man "believes" is right in his own heart, and not according to the precepts and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Man thinks he is so smart. How he loves to be esteemed, how he loves to be praised.

I find it so humorous how these regarded "scholars" can be so ludicrous and incompetant that when they use these so called "manuscripts" that have only so coincidentally been discoverd in the last 100 years that somehow they are "better" and more "accurate".

If anything, all these "scholars" and "experts" are fools.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

The easiest way to spot one of these arrogant, fallen-headed, self-proclaimed scholars, one needs look no further than to listen to that person proclaim all his certifications, degrees, abilities, and intellect to identify that he is nothing more than someone who likes to toot his own horn. In fact, it seems he is trying to convince himself that he is right more than trying to convince others who easily see past it.

I am terribly sorry if I am resounding as critical, harsh, and unloving, I just have a waning tolerance for people who come here simply to try and show how "smart" they are, when they are accomplishing nothing more than doing the exact opposite.

In Christ,

Jim

To argue with fools is to become one. I will step away now to eliminate further degradation of the name of the Lord. I will now let you have your forum back.

Sorry I ruffled your feathers,
Jay

I was thinking more on the line of Proverbs 26:5 in my reply to you.

In Christ,

Jim

How very mice of you to allow us to have "our" forum back. It is greatly appreciated but once again you have lost sight of the Truth. This is not "our" forum. It is The Lord's, and we are His.

Perhaps you can find fellowship with other so-called scholars who value their book learning more than they do the Word of God. I shall pray for you. It is not what it is our heads that counts, it is what is in our heart.

In Christ,
George

To Jay (if you are still reading),

I have meant no offence to you in my responses to you. I believe you to be sincere, and yet sincerely wrong. The KJB writers were NOT considered heretics by the true Church of God, only by those who counted themselves more intellegent that the average man, and controlled an apostate church.

The success of the KJB is because it is THE TRUTH. The men who did the work of translating may not have considered it to be perfect, but God in His amazing interposition directed them beyond their awareness.

Your attraction to the modern versions has blinded you to the truth. All popular modern versions were at their basest intended to make their publishers money. That was the driving force, hence the copyright protection. They are full of errors, their source is flawed, and their damage to young believers is immeasurable.


George and Jim,

Thanks for your comments and rebuttal. We are in a battle, not of choice, but of necessity. Your stand encourages me that I am not alone in this fight. "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" dear brothers.

P.S. to Jay,

You absolutely are!

You assume that I am uneducated in this matter, and you assume wrongly. The most cursory study of the history of the N/A text will reveal its corruption.

You are not alone dear Brother but there are few of us out there who will take an unmoving stance for the Word of God. It is our duty to Christ to do the utmost we can to ensure that others hear the Truth.

We had a wonderful sermon this morning on the apathy of Christians. We support foreign missions to the utmost yet right in the front yard of our own Churches and in our own communites there are many who have not head the Good News. Whose fault is that? It is mine.

We must take a solid stance against the heresy of the so-called "modern versions." They are dangerous.

In Christ,
George

Amen brothers.

I am always glad to be counted among the many who would rather take the risk of being considered "unkind, arrogant, unloving, and politically incorrect" than to have to explain myself before a Holy God at the judgment seat.

I know I will already have a lot to answer for there without having to knowingly add to it....

Love you both,

In Christ,

Jim

Some of the best work, in humble uneducated opinion, was done by Dean Burgeon. His work referencing many ancient authors (as in those writing 200-300ad) shows that they quoted exclusively from what we call the Textus Receptus.

In fact, I seem to remember reading that you could almost piece the NT back together just using the quotes from those ancient authors.

Now either the modern texts we have were lost almost immediately and the ancients quoted from corrupted texts or the basis of the TR goes all the way back.

Historically the TR is traced to centres of pure Christianity. Whereas the modern texts are traced back to centres of gnosticism.

Also, not to base too much on experiance, but look what has happened wherever people held to the KJV. Look what Christianity did and stood for. Now look where the modern texts lead us and what their effect upon the world and believer's are.

Have the modern text movements helped or hindered the church? Have they given more understanding and lead to more memorisation of the Word or have they resulted in less knowledge and less memorisation? Have they enabled the church to live more like God or have they resulted in compromise and worldly methods and goals?

But, some one with a Ph. D; M. Div; RIP did not teach this to me, so I guess it is error....

Looking forward to dying wrong in the eyes of the world and hearing "Well Done"

Martin