Ray, that is very, very well put.


I think Agur, you may be thinking of free-will in life to make decisions upon your own in christian liberty, and free-will according to salvation.

Foreknowledge, predestination, foreordination, etc. are different terms with different meanings.

When we look at the idea of salvation, we have two different persons

Unsaved: These people absolutely will have no desire whatsoever to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, they cannot understand it. In there totally depraved state, the only thing they would ever want to do is serve themselves. The only possible way they could come to Christ is by God's urging and Will, no other way.

Saved: The only reason they now desire Christ is because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The saving blood of Christ broke those chains of bondage and we no longer are a slave to sin. That doesn't mean we wont sin, but we are no longer under it's servitude.

Who determines who will and will not be saved? God alone.

Under the idea of free-will according to christian liberty, I do believe we in a sense have a free-will, however, that will should only desire to be in tune to God's Will, and there are two of those I believe. You can be in God's directive will or permissive will. God forbid we should ever be content to be in His permissive will.

If we truly had a free-will to do what we wanted to do after salvation though, then that would mean there would be no ramifications in using it to serve our selfishness, which is just not true. The lord will only allow us to be out of his will for so long before either bringing us back into it, or killing us if we do not return.

So do we truly have a free-will? I don't think so.

I think the term "free-will" is a term used by people to say to God, "I want to be able to do what I want, without your interference."

Love in Christ,

Jim

Which one, Jim - Calvinist? or Anabaptist?

Which one what, I don't understand what you are asking me.

Oh! ok, you were speaking of my earlier post, sorry, just missed the continuity.

I have a hard time placing the label upon myself in which so many want to attach. I am simply a bible-believing christian. If that leads me to believe things that Calvinists believe, so be it. That goes for Methodists, Anabaptists, Catholics, Muslims, or whatsoever.

Hard for you to take? It isn't for God. The truth is the truth, however you want to label it.

A label? I am a christian, nothing more. I am nothing more than what God makes me to be.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Therefore God is not all knowing and not all powerful and therefore it is possible to be more powerful than God yes?

why is it not biblical? again you are saying that God is within time and does not know what will happen. The very first verse of the bible tells us that God is outside time "In the beginning". Therefore if God is outside of time he knows everything that happens within time, therefore he knows who will and who wont be saved. If he is as you state within time and does not have for knowledge then he is in fact not all powerful and capable of being toppled which is obviously what satan believes he can do. He believes he can topple God and sit on the throne.

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him [God's sovereignty]: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" [Man's personal accountability] (Matt. 26:24).

I have a problem with this since Christ was able to state prior to the fact that Judas Iscariot would betray Christ. How then can this man have made a free will choice if Christ had fore knowledge of the mans actions to be?

Judas Iscariot could do no other than to betray Christ. It says so in John 17. Also note Christ specificly says He's not praying for the world but for those that God gave Him.

Ray

It is difficult to answer verses here and there, for the Scripture cannot be separated or divided, and I also don't want to tarnish all Calvinist's with the same brush.

God was outside of time, when He created time. He knows the beginning from the end, but the point that we are all interested in is this: who will be saved? Now, all Bible believing Christians believe one thing, even if they are divided on all other points, and it is this: only faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ will save people. Failure to not trust this will damn all.

The Bible is full of paradoxes, like the one that I mentioned from Matt. 26:24, which is given to the apostles in time.

Yet the NT is very clear: man has a responsibility to hear and respond to the gospel (Rom. 10:17.) John 6, tells us that only those that are drawn or given to the Son can come. Luke 19:10 has the Saviour taking the initiative to seek those that were lost (that's everybody), but only those that come will be saved (John 1:12.) Paul tells us that: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputting their trespasses unto them.....we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:19-21.) Now this can't be speaking to the Church, for they are already Justified and Sanctified by their repentance and faith in Jesus, so he must be speaking vicariously to all people for all times, for in Rom. 5, it is clear that, 'As by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5:18.) However, universal salvation is not what is meant from this.

For example, Jesus' blood is sufficient for all, but only efficient for those that come. These verses could demonstrate my hypothesis:

"For God so love the world, that he gave his only begotten son [Provision], that whosoever believeth in him [Appropriation] should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16.)

"Who is the Saviour OF ALL MEN[Provision], specially of THOSE THAT BELIEVE" [Appropriation] (1 Tim. 4:10.)

"Behold I stand at the door, and knock [Provision]: if any man hear my voice, and open the door [Appropriation], I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me" (Rev. 3:20.)

Now I have just used a handful of verses to show you what the Bible teaches. I haven't used any theological system, just used Scripture with Scripture.

James
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me (John 12:32.")

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Just an answer, not an accusation.

Jim

Jim,

Yes I know 2 Tim. 2:15 - my point was that one needs to take the whole Bible into consideration, and not to only use one or two verses to make point.

No, Howbeit I think a lot of it is semantics{i.e.strifes of words!}. I just don't believe that I couldn't have been saved before I was--I could have, but I chose not to be. My Dad is not "saved", but he could be if HE made that decision. No we can't be saved without the Grace of God (Grace is not unmerited favor), but the Grace of God has appeared to all men. And God is not willing that any should perich, but that all should come to repentence. I think that if God sat around and thought..."I'll save this one and that one, but not the other one...", He just as well might not have had the earthly realm. I could go further, but I won't.

Hey Ray and Jim!

Can you believe I've been associated with this board all this time and never knew y'all held to reformed doctrine (or Calvinism, or the doctrines of grace, et al)? Shows how much I pay attention!

Are these the only options? Does having a sin nature make every thought and deed sinful by definition? Is unregenerate man incapable of kindness or sacrifice?

Does this not make our LORD the author of sin?

Your excellent Ephesians reference says no, and I believe it. But don't take the "dead man" analogy too far. While a spiritually dead man can't discern the things of the Spirit, he can hear the call to repentance. Before I was saved I could hear, I could reason, and I bore the image of my Creator.

I don't understand your point. Surely we agree that the LORD knows all things?

I will never understand how some folks equate a condemned man pleading for mercy and calling desperately for help a "work" or a "merit".
Is it not the work of our schoolmaster "the law" to show us our sin and our need? What need had I of the law if I could do nothing else than be saved? Was my repentance a sham?

No, we don't all pray that way. I pray fervently for my unsaved loved ones, that our merciful Father would bring them into situations to tender their hearts, to show them their need, to energize my witness, that they would see Christ "high and lifted up".

And to that...a hearty AMEN!

In His service,

Razorbuck

I would like to clear up a statement that I made earlier, when I said I was not a Calvinist. Calvin was buried in an unmarked grave as he did not anyone to honour his remains. I therefore think that he would not want anyone to call themselves by his name. I do, however hold the doctrines of grace.

My daughter, between school and univerity, worked in a solicitor's office. The boss once said to her "That's a bit of luck." "I s'pose so, if you believe in it." she replied. "Oh I suppose you believe in predestination?" "Yes, I do." After that, whenever anyone made a mistake in the office, he would say "Oh. That's not a mistake, it was predestinated."

Is this not predestination? God did not say you might be built. (They had not even been destroyed when this was written.)

Likewise.

Here we have predestination in action. God foreordained what would happen. Cyrus responded:

This is also mentioned, of course in Dan 9: 25 "....from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem .......

In Isaiah 45:1. God calls Cyrus "My Annointed (MY Christ)" Because ".... he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward.." He was a Type of the Lord Jesus.

These are all easily explained by the FACT of foreknowledge...