The following is a quote from Vincent Cheung, you can find his writings at http://www.rmiweb.org/books.htm


Man is responsible precisely because God is sovereign, since to be responsible means
nothing more than being held accountable to one's actions, that one will be rewarded or
punished according to a given standard of right and wrong. Moral responsibility has
everything to do with whether God has decided to judge man and whether he has the
power and authority to enforce such a decision, but it does not depend on any "free will"
in man. Man is responsible because God will reward obedience and punish rebellion, but
this does not at all imply that man is free to obey or rebel.
Romans 8:7 says, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor
can it do so." Man is responsible for his sins not because he is free or able not to sin; this
verse says that he is not. But man is responsible because God has decided to judge him
for his sins. Therefore, human responsibility does not presuppose human autonomy or
free will, but it presupposes the absolute sovereignty of God. Divine sovereignty
contradicts human autonomy, but not human responsibility.30
For many people, the issue now becomes one of justice. They insist that it would be
unjust for God to condemn those sinners who were never free to decide or perform
otherwise, and who were created for and predestined to damnation by God in the first
place. Since this objection will also be relevant when we discuss the doctrine of
reprobation, we will deal with it there.
Some people find it impossible to deny that the Bible indeed teaches divine election, and
that election is for salvation; nevertheless, they are not prepared to affirm that God
chooses specific individuals. They propose that God indeed elects some for salvation, but
that election is corporate in nature. They claim that Ephesians 1:4 supports this position:
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world." Since the verse says that God's
election is in Christ, the objection against the election of individuals for salvation is that
the object of election is Christ, and whoever comes into Christ becomes one of the elect.
However, Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 1:27-30, "But God chose…so that no one may
boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us
wisdom from God – that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption." The apostle
says that it is God who made the choice in election so that "no one may boast before
him." Against those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, the passage says, "It is because of him that you are
in Christ Jesus." God chooses who becomes "in Christ," and therefore divine election is
in fact a selection of individuals.
In addition, corporate election fails to explain why anyone would want to come into
Christ without having been individually chosen and then "dragged" to Christ by God.31
According to what we have already established about the depravity of man and his
bondage to sin, if Christ were to be the sole object of election, no one would enter into
him, and no one would be saved. For a given person to be saved, God must first choose
and then directly and powerfully act on his mind. Therefore, we conclude that divine
election consists of God's choice of individuals for salvation, and not the corporate
church or Christ.
In any case, it is possible to refute corporate election by directly dealing with the passage
in question. Ephesians 1:4-6 says:
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted
as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure
and will – to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely
given us in the One he loves.
Verse 4 says that he chose us "in him," with the object of God's selection as "us" and not
Christ. That is, it says that he "chose us," and not that he "chose him." Verse 5 excludes
corporate election when it says, "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through
Jesus Christ." God predestined us – not Christ, but the individuals – to be adopted as his
sons through Jesus Christ. Likewise, verse 6 says, "he has freely given us in the One he
loves." God gives salvation to us in Christ; he does not give salvation to Christ and then
wait for us to come into Christ by some sort of self-election.
Christ is indeed the elect or chosen one to achieve salvation, but he is not the elect when
it comes to who would receive salvation. Election in the context of salvation refers to the
individuals that God has chosen to save through Jesus Christ. Christ is the one chosen to
save, and the elect are the ones chosen to be saved. The "in him" in verse 4 corresponds
to the "through Christ Jesus" in verse 5 and the "in the One he loves" in verse 6, with all
three expressions referring to him as the means of salvation, and not the object of
salvation.

This selection was taken from 'Systematic Theology' if you care to read the remainder of this thought, download the PDF and start at page 182.
Pilgrim

Many people make the observation that biblical election contradicts the "free will" of
man, and since they insist that man has free will, they accordingly reject the doctrines of
absolute sovereignty and divine election as presented in this book. Against this objection,
we may simply answer that human beings do not have free will at all. Although many
Christians assume that human beings possess free will, this is a pagan notion that can find
no support from the Bible.23
R. K. McGregor Wright defines "free will" as follows: "By the term free will I mean the
belief that the human will has an inherent power to choose with equal ease between
alternatives. This is commonly called 'the power of contrary choice' or 'the liberty of
indifference….' Ultimately, the will is free from any necessary causation. In other words,
it is autonomous from outside determination."24 Free will assumes "the absence of any
controlling power, even God and his grace, and therefore the equal ability in any situation
to choose either of two incompatible courses of action."25 Assuming such a definition, I
contend that man does not have free will.
In the first place, it is impossible for finite beings to have free will. If we think of the
exercise of the will as the movement of the mind toward a certain direction,26 the
question arises as to what moves the mind, and why it moves toward where it moves.
Even if we assume that the mind can move itself, we are still left with the question of
why it moves itself toward a given direction, that is, why it chooses one option instead of
another. If one traces the movement and direction of the mind to factors external to the
mind itself – factors that impress themselves upon the consciousness from the outside,
and thus influencing or determining the decision – then how is this movement of the
mind free? On the other hand, if one traces the cause to the person's innate propensities,
then this movement of the mind is likewise not free, since such in-built inclinations have
not been freely chosen (that is, without external influences) by the person in the first place, yet they determine the decisions that he makes. If a person's decisions are
determined by a mixture of innate propensities and external influences, it remains that he
does not have free will.
If the mind makes decisions based on factors, causes, and influences not chosen by the
mind itself, then these decisions are not free. Although we may affirm that man has a
will, so that the mind can indeed move toward different options, the ability and reason for
such movement is never determined by the mind itself, but by something other than the
mind itself. Since this is true for all finite beings, it follows that only God possesses free
will. As Luther writes against the humanist Erasmus:
It is a settled truth, then…that we do everything of necessity, and
nothing by "free-will"; for the power of "free-will" is nil…It
follows, therefore, that "free-will" is obviously a term applicable
only to the Divine Majesty; for only He can do, and does (as the
Psalmist sings) "whatever he wills in heaven and earth" (Psalm
135:6). If "free-will" is ascribed to men, it is ascribed with no more
propriety than divinity itself would be – and no blasphemy could
exceed that!27
No one under the dominion of sin can simply "decide" to be free from it without God's
intervention, nor would the person wish to be free from sin before such an intervention
occurs. Salvation is wholly the work of God, so that no one may boast of his works or
even his "good sense" in that he has "chosen" Christ (John 15:16; Ephesians 2:. Even
after one has become a Christian, "it is God who works in you to will and to act
according to his good purpose" (Philippians 2:13).
Scripture teaches that God is the one who determines the thoughts and decisions of man.
He exercises immediate control over the mind of man, and determines all the innate
propensities and external factors relevant to him. It is God who forms a person in the
womb, who determines his inward dispositions, and who arranges his outward
circumstances by divine providence. It is true that the doctrine of election contradicts the
free will of man,28 but free will is a human invention – a sinful assumption or aspiration –
and not a scriptural concept. Therefore, the "free will" objection against divine election
fails because free will does not exist.
Many people think that there is a contradiction between divine sovereignty and human
responsibility. They assume that human responsibility presupposes human autonomy, or
free will. But if God has absolute and pervasive control over all human decisions and
actions, then man is not free, and therefore divine sovereignty and human responsibility
appear to be in conflict. Now, the first definition for "responsible" in Webster's New World College Dictionary is,
"expected or obliged to account (for something, to someone); answerable; accountable."29
Regardless of whether man is free or not, man is certainly "expected or obliged to
account" for his actions to God. The Bible says, "For God will bring every deed into
judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:14).
God will reward the righteous and punish the wicked; therefore, man is responsible.
Pilgrim

MOST PEOPLE say that they believe in “free will.” Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?


THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM

No one denies that man has a will — that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph’s brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in His power directed events for Joseph’s good. He said, “But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good” (Gen 50:20).

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God’s providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man’s will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.

Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but THE LORD DIRECTETH his steps” (Prov 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps” (Jer 10:23).

Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do; but your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus’ parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, “This I WILL do: I WILL pull down all my barns, and build greater: and there I WILL bestow all my fruits and my goods. . . But God said unto him. Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee” (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you.

THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM

But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making MORAL decisions. Man’s will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man’s will free to choose?

The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force, but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions.

Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature, but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition. according to the condition of your heart.

It is just for this reason that your will is NOT free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil CONTINUALLY” (Gen 6:5). “There is NONE that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil.

Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, “And their foolish heart was darkened” (Rom 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, “There is NONE that seeketh after God” (Rom 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose God. To choose good is contrary to human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature.

If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force, but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man’s power of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without prior work of divine grace.

What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to ONLY evil CONTINUALLY Jeremiah asked, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots’? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil” (Jer 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil.

In spite of the great praise that is given to “free will,” we have seen that man’s will is not free to choose a course contrary to God’s purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality makeup.

THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM

Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. They say that here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.

There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called “faith.” But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, “Out of the power of their own free will.” But how can that be? Jesus is a PROPHET — to receive Him means to believe all that He says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, “Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.” How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

Further, to receive Jesus means to embrace him as a PRIEST — that is, to employ and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrifice and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.

Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome Him as a KING. It means choosing to obey His every command, to confess His right of rule and to worship before His throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, “We will not have this man to reign over us” (Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates His truth, hates His rule and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith?

It is not man’s will but God’s GRACE that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission. man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must he given before a man can believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human nature even in the matter of conversion. Jesus said. “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye MUST be born again” (John 3:7). Unless you are, you will never see His kingdom.

Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been “born, not of the will of man, but of God.” As your will is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he then could choose to answer the call of Christ, but he could not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:5, “Even when we were dead in sins, [God] I hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).” Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life.

No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of the Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature. You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance. Cast yourself upon God’s mercy for salvation. Ask for the Spirit of Grace that He may create a new spirit within you.


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I don't think the concept of the original Arminian theology of free will states that we are free to sin or rebel against God. Just as the original theology of Calvinism does not state that we are bound kicking and screaming into salvation with no choice in the matter.

I do not deny the Lords divine Will and election. But I will not concede that the doctrine of predestination ultimately refutes anything that we as humans(remember, God's creation in His own image, and that includes a will) have. Yes, that will was originally created in us to conform to God's Will. We have sinned, and that will is no longer in line with the Lords, unless we have salvation. Then, under the rejuvination and guidance of the Hly Spirit via salvation and redemption, we have the desire to know and come to Him in all ways.

Maybe the wording should be free-choice and not free-will? I tend to agree that we do not have a free-will, but I do not agree that we have no choice but to accept Christ.

I simply cry for balance when thinking upon these concepts as it sounds like most people resort to the extreme of hyper-calvinism when they attempt to refute Arminianism. (I am not referring to your statements sister, just a general response to hyper-calvinism as it has described Arminianism)

Hyper-Calvinism states that there is no room for evangelism for the elect will be saved, there is nothing we can do to stop that, and the Lord is already checking off His list gettign those people finished so we can enter into the new millennium.

Will I say that our choice will ultimately end up in rejection? No, I am not ready to say that, I simply ask that Calvinists explain irresistable grace better. If the Lord has a will to save a man, He can regenerate that man from his totally depraved state, draw him(John 6:44), and bring him to salvation.

***READ*** That man, I believe had a choice to reject the urgings of the Holy Spirit, but did not, because the will of the Lord was more powerful than his will, and he comes in obedience to the Lords will, in full desire as well. Did this man have a free-will or choice in the matter? Well, it depends on how you define that word. If free-will is defined by the desire of a person to come to the Lord, then it was free-will. It was not dictated by a choice to define this term, but a desire. If free-will is defined by nothing to do with the Holy Spirits urging, but the desire of the man to know Christ, then is it free-will?

If a man is reading God's word and desires to know Christ without the urging of the Father, will the Holy Spirit then come to urge to show understanding to this man? Well, this is a rhetorical question as the Lord knew beforehand that this man would read His Word, and all we see is that the reading of the Word seemed to come beforehand of the urging of the Father, so we try to conclude that the result of the urging came via the reading of the Word....

Do you see where I am trying to go with this? It almost seems that these two doctrines seems to cause contention simply because of a perception. The whole thing boils down to whether or not one doctrine believes that the others doctrine glorifies self, or the Lord.

Like I said in another post....what will a Calvinist say when he/she sees an Arminian in heaven?

Calvinists have seen some of the greatest revivals we have ever seen in the age of Grace. Guess what, so have arminians. One need look no further than the preaching of John Wesley to see that.

When I see someone stand back and use any harsh words to detest the doctrine of Arminianism, I get very uncomfortable.

I will state yet again, I tend to agree more with the doctrine of Calvinism than Arminianism, but I think our time better spent reading God's Word, and to reaching others especially in this time and day.

Arminianists have as much a problem defining free-will as Calvinists do, just as Calvinists have as much a problem defining predestination as Arminianists do.

Bear in mind sister, I am not disagreeing with you per se, just asking for an understanding and balance.

We simply need to remember that the Lord has the sovereign right to do anythign as He wishes, and has the right to use anyone he wishes for anything He wishes with no thought to ourselves. Does He acatually do this with everyone? No, I don't think so. It is scriptural that he does this with some. But that should not be our focus when evangelizing.

God does indeed have a sovereign plan and will. There is nothing we can do to thwart that plan. The Lord will do as He sees fit to whom and for whom He wishes to see that plan through. Our job is to glorify Him in all biblical truth and spirit according as He deserves, with NO regard to ourselves.

I have seen Arminianists refute humanism just as ardently as Calvinists, and this is the point in case that matters. Humanism is the de-facto point that we all must combat in christianity. Humanism is the betrayal in todays age. this is what we as christians must address in people.

Free-will? Do we have it? It all depends on how you define free-will.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Amen Brother Jim. I like the way you put it of free choice rather than free will. Freedom of choice is soemthing we have had since the first Adam. If we did not have that freedom of choice, at the risk of be rational, I would not need the Bible to tell me how to get right when I go astray.

In Christ,
George

Jim posted: "We simply need to remember that the Lord has the sovereign right to do anythign as He wishes, and has the right to use anyone he wishes for anything He wishes with no thought to ourselves. Does He acatually do this with everyone? No, I don't think so. It is scriptural that he does this with some. But that should not be our focus when evangelizing.'

In addressing this statement, I would content that the underlined portion, 'does He actually do this with everyone' is and unequoivacial "YES". Some are the chosen, elect, and the others are reprobates. Doesn't the potter have power over the clay?

in a previous paragraph you said: " But I will not concede that the doctrine of predestination ultimately refutes anything that we as humans(remember, God's creation in His own image, and that includes a will) have." The only problem here is that 'man' has to realize that God with His Will has to power, right and might to carry out what so ever He Wills. Man thinks he can do this by calling it 'free' (and I think it should be called 'choice' rather than will) but man has no ability to control what will be in the next hour, much less what he would 'will' to do. We are created in God's image, but that is where the comparison has to end, for He is God the creator, and we are the created beings. There may be similarities in body, soul, spirit, but man is missing the power, might, and right to will anything, in the sense that God does.
Pilgrim

I think perhaps we are guilty of trying to understand God. That we cannot do. Anything we can understand we can control. Let me give you an example. If I take a piece of equipment of some type such as a computer and tear it apart to look at it I can put it back together and understand what needs to go where to make it work. Once I do that I can control that computer by adding or taking away hardware, software and such as that.

If we were to be able to understand our Creator He would be no different than anything else in our lives. He would be no different than any other man that is in our lives. He would become commonplace and actually of not any value to us.

It is by faith we must accept Him in all His glory. It is by faith we must accept that we cannot understand Him. I cannot understand in any way at all why God chose to save a man like me. I am the wretch they wrote the song about. I was worthless to anyone including myself. How can I possibly begin to understand why God decided I should be saved. My goodness, not only did He save my eternal life, He saved my mortal life.

How can I possibly begin to understand tha aspect of God much less the larger parts of Him?

In Christ,
George

George: There is no where in the Bible that we are told to try to understand God. We are told to 'believe' though. You speak of 'faith', yet where does the faith come from? (God gives it to us, so that we can believe. Our 'faith' is not something we act out, but rather the One that we Believe has done what He said He would do.)
Our puny pigmy minds cannot 'understand' eternity, or the trinity, but that doesn't relieve us or keep us from believing in them, whole heartily.


Pilgrim

First, I think we are forgetting the very fundamental reason for which we are even here on earth. Are we not here to glorify God?

If this is true, and it most certainly is, then what is the problem with the above statements?

Pilgrim, are you stating that God forces glory from us? If you believe that God controls everything we do,say, and think, then where is the glory for Him?

If we have no will to glorify Him, then how is that glorification acceptable to Him?

The general underatand of God's sovereignty was not intended to be used as an argument for totalitarian control. It was used to address man's heart in thinking that his will(pride) could be anything to stand against God's.

If God controls all things predetermined, then He predestined Adam and Eve to sin?

If we have no choice in anything, then why was Israel allowed to eliminate the theocracy of God and raise King Saul to themselves.

To assert that man has no will whatsover is foolishness. I hope that this is not what you are trying to say.

Man has a will alright, it's just that man has no right to assert that will above and beyond that of the Lord's. The Lord can, and sometimes will according to His plan, have control over man's will to do as He sees fit, but I simply do not believe that God controls every man's will all of the time.

To claim to be one of God's elect and assert that God has complete control over that persons will is vanity and pride, due to the undertones of the claim that they have nothing to worry about.

God will receive glory as we receive Him. The Holy Spirit can be resisted, and the Holy Spirit can be quenched.

When the glorification stops from us, the very rocks will cry out. Does the concept of man's ability to choose Christ lessen the Lord's sovereignty? No it does not.

These reasons are why I assert the term 'choice' over 'will'. And I certainly doubt you will find anyone here who does NOT recognize God's right to do anything He chooses to and for us.

You were kind of harsh to Razorbuck in another thread. He is one of the godlest men I know, and I ask you to please be careful in your choice of words to him.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Jim posted:

First, I think we are forgetting the very fundamental reason for which we are even here on earth. Are we not here to glorify God?

Of course we are here to Glorify God, that is not the topic of discussion here though. Staying on track with the subject makes this type of discussion much easier.

If this is true, and it most certainly is, then what is the problem with the above statements?
Again, this isn't the subject, and interjecting another thought just clouds the issue.

Pilgrim, are you stating that God forces glory from us? If you believe that God controls everything we do,say, and think, then where is the glory for Him?

God receives Glory from His People in the words, actions and deeds and especially our Obedience to His WiLL. You must remember He Doesn't NEED us, He isn't sitting waiting for glory to rise up to Him.

If we have no will to glorify Him, then how is that glorification acceptable to Him?
One has a 'will' to glorify Him, once they have caught a glimpse of the crucified, risen Christ. This 'will' is not the same will that this discussion is trying to label as 'free'.


The general underatand of God's sovereignty was not intended to be used as an argument for totalitarian control. It was used to address man's heart in thinking that his will(pride) could be anything to stand against God's.
I wonder why you would choose such a word as Totalitarian in speaking of God? Is He not in Total control? God's Sovereignty is there to show man how useless, hopeless and helpless he is, and how much in control God truly is. From other posts, you seem to believe that man does have some ability to use his 'will' against God's will, and actually succeed at it. I would like to see some Scripture to back this up.

If God controls all things predetermined, then He predestined Adam and Eve to sin?
Of course! If Adam hadn't fell there would be no need of a saviour and we would all still be in perfect harmony with God, in the Garden.

If we have no choice in anything, then why was Israel allowed to eliminate the theocracy of God and raise King Saul to themselves.

Because it was part of God's plan to allow the jealous jews to try to act like all the other heathen.

To assert that man has no will whatsover is foolishness. I hope that this is not what you are trying to say.
I am not, nor never had said that man doesn't have a 'will'. I think the term used (will) is lacking, 'choice' or 'desire' is more fitting. What I have stated is that it is not, nor ever will be, nor never has been FREE. Our 'choices' are always made by some 'desire' in us, around us, or from some outside influence.

Man has a will alright, it's just that man has no right to assert that will above and beyond that of the Lord's. The Lord can, and sometimes will according to His plan, have control over man's will to do as He sees fit, but I simply do not believe that God controls every man's will all of the time.

Then I would have to say that you have a problem with His Sovereignty. God states evoquicivically that He is in control of 'ALL' things. There is that little word again (all) it is always amazing that in places some like to make 'all' mean every living breathing thing upon His Creation, but when it butts up to our preconceived thinking 'all' then becomes 'somethings' or 'sometimes' but not 'ALL'.

To claim to be one of God's elect and assert that God has complete control over that persons will is vanity and pride, due to the undertones of the claim that they have nothing to worry about.

Who ever said we have nothing to worry about. The 'worry' as you call it comes in trying to make our 'flesh' obedient to His Will. No one will ever accomplish anything against His Will. We realize in working thru our pilgrimage here how wayward we are, as His Children. It is not vanity and pride, but attempting to 'keep my body under' as Paul called it. 'Thy will be done, on earth, (in me!) as it is in Heaven'....

God will receive glory as we receive Him. The Holy Spirit can be resisted, and the Holy Spirit can be quenched.
Are you speaking about Salvation here? I have searched for a verse that says we can resist the Holy Spirit, and can't find it. Where did you find it?


Pilgrim

If you cannot differentiate between a subject change and subject that helps the matter at hand, then that is your issue. And if you also feel that fundamnetal subjects "cloud" the issue, then maybe you ought to go back and read the fundamentals of why you are here on earth?

A very peculiar statement from someone who purports that the Lord controls every aspect of our lives. This seems a little contradictory. But yes, I am very aware of this fact.

Please show where this discussion has ever at any point tryed to label mans will as "free". It seems you have such an issue with Arminianism, you cannot see any other viewpoint. I am not talking about a "free" will for man to do as he chooses with no consequence to those actions. I am not talking about a will that can overcome God's will. I am talking about God allowing us to make choices as our wills dictate by whatever influence that will has at that time, be it flesh, satan, or the Lord. Need an example? Look at Job.

Read the definition of Totalitarian:

God's control over this world is not exerted in dictatorial sense in which you seem to believe. That is hyper-calvinism. I am speaking about here on earth, not God's supernatural realm. If this was true, then we would all be in obedience to scripture or feel the wrath instantaneously if we disobeyed.

I love how you made sure you put your own little "and actually succeed at it" in there. Nice loaded question/accusation. Man CAN use his will against God's until that will of man realizes the sovereignty of God. This means that this can be certainly too late for that man when he realizes this in eternal damnation. It is not a matter of IF he ever realizes it, it is a matter of WHEN. Can mans will succeed against Gods? NO.

But can a man set his will against God's? YES!!! Will God allow it? YES!!! If a man could not set his will against God, then there would be no such thing as rebellion!

Just like Satan was created for this too, huh? Poor Satan and Eve just never had a chance.......and what about Job?

An excellent example of God allowing a man to make his own choices WITHOUT the intervention of God. Job still worshipped God and relied on Him. Yes, Job replied against God and was chastised for it. But Job made his own choices. Just as we as christians are either in the directive Will of God, or in the permissive Will of God, we still make those choices. Sin separates us from God. God cannot look upon sin. When we sin with unrepentant sin, we fell emptiness. We also feel conviction. I also believe that if we remain in that sin, ultimately we can be taken out of this fleshly life.

Your own words:

This is not consistent with what you seem to be sayign that God controls every aspect of our lives. I say this because you have yet to deny my claim that you believe this.

This is yet another example which supports the claim that you are also talking about our choices, not only our wills, being controlled.

I find it very ironic that people always resort back to "It's all in God's plan" no matter what happened/happens, as if they can just sit back and relax and enjoy the ride of life with no opposition to anything that is going on the world. If it's always an attitude of "It was in God's plan", then what's the point of fighting for anything or evangelizing for that matter?

I have also stated that our will is not "free". Show me where I have not. What I think the isseu is between you and me is our discription of what the difference is between choice and will.

Example:

Jim ate a banana.

Did Jim's will cause him to eat that banana? Or was it Jim's choice to eat that banana?

You see the difference? There really is none. It is all perception. My cry for balance here was for your realization that other peoples' perception may be different from yours they just explain it differently. Don't go off on a tirade about "free-will" simply because your perception is "assumed" to be that the other person is referring to a "free" will, when in essence they are speaking of a choice.

And you are self-contradictory and causing confusion with your statements here. And you are entitled to your OPINION that I have a problem with God's sovereignty, but if you go back through all my posts here on the site, which I daresay you have not, you would not make such a foolish statement about me.

how can you make a statement like:

Unless you are saying that since you are one of the "elect" you are perfect now since God controls everything you do, say, eat, sleep, etc. etc. etc.. Now before you say anything else, I do believe that God can control everything we do if we LET Him, and ask Him to.

I am not speaking about salvation, I am speaking of the saved, and here is your verse:

1 Thess 5:19
Quench not the Spirit.

Does that mean we can ultimately resist the Holy Spirit? Yes, on this earth we can, but the result may be death. After death, does that mean we ultimately resisted? No. God had/has His judgment.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Jim; my sincerest appology, my intent was not to critize you nor upset you. These types of discussions can generate 'heat' at times, and I appologize if you took my post that way. I shall strive to keep my tone 'cool'.

Jim posted:
Quote:

If God controls all things predetermined, then He predestined Adam and Eve to sin?
(I replied)
Of course! If Adam hadn't fell there would be no need of a saviour and we would all still be in perfect harmony with God, in the Garden.



Just like Satan was created for this too, huh? Poor Satan and Eve just never had a chance.......and what about Job?

It is not a matter of Satan or Eve having had a chance, they were created for His purpose, Job also, just like you and I. I think

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

explains it.

Do you think Satan, Eve, Job or Judas could have 'willed' to do any differently than they did?
Pilgrim

Ok, I will give you that last post. I have been thinking about my position on that specific part and even been studying Isaiah 45:7. I will post my thoughts soon.

Apology absolutely accepted. If I have been harsh in my response to you also, then I am heartily sorry.

Love in Christ,

Jim

I think we can all agree disregarding any semantics that the answer to the original question is:

"Free from the bondage of sin"

I love you all very much in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Jim

Brother Jim, that is an absolute truth!!! I lived that for many years. I used my will against God's will for many years until I almost killed myself. Killing myself is not part of God's will. Is there anyone out there really stupid enough to believe that killiing myself would have been part of God's will for me??? My word!!! Certainly God would have know if that was what I was to do. However it is God's will that all come to salvation. That is backed up in scripture over and over again. We CAN do things against God's will.

In Christ,
George Groce