I read these posts with much interest, and if I may, would like to make a couple of comments and ask a question.

First, Jim my brother, you have given me MUCH to think, pray and study about with your posts on this thread. Thank you.

Pilgrim, if you think Jim has a "problem" with our LORD's sovereignty, you need to read/reread his posts. Couldn't be further from the truth.

And a question, not at all facetious, but in all sobriety of mind:

I know that our LORD's overarching, sovereign will shall come to pass, period. (see the Revelation) I also know that he has given me a will of my own, and the freedom to make choices based upon it, indeed it was His holy Word that taught me that love not freely given isn't truly love. So shouldn't it in truth ADD to our perception of His awesome might and power that He can work all things together for good to them that love Him, and bring about His sovereign will DESPITE the liberty He granted us to exercise our own?

Jim, your observation that man has no right to assert his will above the LORD's brought (in additon to an excited "Amen!") instantly to my mind Philippians 2:13. Good works proceed from a will yielded to HIS, this is the work of our mighty Abba, and on this point there can be no debate. However, it seems to me that scripture allows the possibility that man can frustrate the LORD's revealed will for him, while being powerless to change His sovereign plan. Is this not illustrated in our Saviour's instruction to pray in Luke 11:2 that our Father's will be done on earth? Are we commanded to pray for what must inevitably happen anyway?

Oh, and George, I agree with your comments on trying to understand God. If He could fit in our little three-pound brains (average--my wife would argue that mine is somewhat less... ) then He wouldn't be much of a God, eh?

Love y'all.

Something I had not thought about prior to reading this thread again this morning is the extent of the freedom from I have been granted by His grace and mercies.

I have been given freedom from the bondage of sin. I lived almost 38 years of my life in bondage to substance abuse to the point of almost taking my own life. It was my wife and my life. I have been freed from this bondage through nothing of my own and eveything from God through Christ Jesus.

That is the largest answer to the quesiton of freedom from what for me. I remain eternally grateful for all He had done for me despite my being completely undeserving of it. Not only do I believe I could challenge Paul for the title of chief among sinners, I am the wretch they wrote the song about.

And He loves me anyway! Wow!!!

In Christ,
George

And I thank you brother for your consistent Godly input and wonderful attitude.

Brother, I believe I know what you are asking, please let me know if I respond differently than requested.

God is certainly unimaginable in truth. I probably need to be clear on my stance of predestination, and I will endeavor to make myself as clear as possible.

I completely believe in the doctrine of predestination. I believe salvation comes only via the will of God. In response to the idea of "free-will" however, is that the idea of our will in salvation comes from the fact that we as human beings at the time of our conversion have the knowledge and perception of our acceptance (the idea that we responded with a free-will). The extension of that thought being what caused that perception of acceptance? I believe that perception is only from Christ Jesus our Lord.

In God's immutable indeterminable will, He certainly has the ability, and utilizes that ability, in all His creation to determine who He will and will not bring to salvation. Thinking on the term "will" and "willing" sometimes we can get two different meanings.

Think on it this way: We know according to John 6:44 that the first step in mans salvation is that first the Father must draw that person.

Knowing this, we see that it is solely up to our heavenly Father that He sends the Holy Spirit to draw men unto Him. OK, that being said, why does this need to be so? Do we not have the Holy Scriptures that say that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God? (Rom. 10:17) And if that is so, why do we need the urging of the Holy Spirit to come to know Christ as our Saviour? It is my belief that the scriptures give us the accounting of our faith. The scriptures are unknown to a blind(unsaved) person. And that being so, it(the gospel) certainly cannot be revealed by the reading of the scriptures(by an unsaved person) alone. I am not saying that the bible and people cannot be used as an instrumentation of the Gospel, I am saying that the instrumentation cannot be a provider of the Holy Spirit. Only God Himself can be a provider of the Holy Spirit according to His will.

We, being a fallen people, being totally depraved, cannot know the will of God. It is my belief that in our fallen state, that there is no possibility of man desiring to come to Christ short of the urging of the Father(John 6:44), and that is the reason of why He must will us to come to Him. It is also in His will who should, and should not, come to Him.

It seems rather unfair doesn’t it? But I will tell you what helps me. Anytime, I start thinking “How could a loving God?….or….That doesn’t seem fair…” I remind myself of Romans 9:20,21:


Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

When I think of this, I am quickly put back into my understanding of the sovereignty of God and His perfection and holiness.

According to you question:

Yes, I agree with this, to a point. And I know that you put “will for him” in there with the understanding that the will for a sole man, is different from the will of his ultimate sovereign plan, except that man be a direct part of it (e.g. anti-christ, Judas, etc.). As I have stated in other posts, I believe a Christian can be within God’s directive will or permissive will. We certainly have the ability to will against God.

For example, if I pray and the Lord reveals to me that He wants me to be a minister, and I can be assured that God’s directive will for me is laid out and set, I can choose to do one of two things. I can either obey, or disobey. Yes, I believe that is what it boils down to, obedience. I also believe that God’s directive will is always directed to what you can do to give Him the most glory out of your life. If I decide to obey under His directive will and follow the preordained path set by Him, then I can glorify Him to the fullest according to His sovereign will and purpose for me. However, I certainly can choose to disobey, and under His permissive will, follow the path I set for myself, and be miserable, following the typical roller-coaster Christian life with no stability, no happiness, and always being identified with the World. Eventually, I believe, the Lord will allow us to remain here so long before taking us home. God will not allow himself to be mocked, certainly not by His own children. And if He cannot get His children to obey, then He will chastise here on earth, to the point of taking us out.

There is no happiness outside of the will of God.

Hope this helps clarify that point, I will address your other questions in a little while.

Love in Christ,

Jim