Bro Chuck,
Once again, you've "nailed it down"! Several months back, when GT initially threw up (and I really mean vomited) all of this "scholarly" exegesis, I responded with some facts that good, godly Dr Skeeterwhiffle and Dr Messumup and Dr Smellfungus, either did not cover, or glossed over, or totally ignored. What you are seeing from young GT, is a prime example of what today's "Bible colleges" are producing. This is why I said what I did. These modern day "bible scholars" teaching in the colleges, with all their degrees, are educated beyond their intelligence. They appear so pious and reverent, but are really wolves in sheep's clothing. A real, godly Bible teacher/professor, would strengthen a preacher's faith in the Bible, not tear it down, or cast doubt on it. This is not the 1st time I've ran across his likes, but each one is a clone of the last one - same song, different key. The clincher for me on where GT was coming from, was the note on his website that said he adamantly opposed the KJBO view. That, my friend, is never taught by the Holy Spirit - it has to be learned from "scholars." None of them believe in an inerrant Bible. Their faith is in scholars, not God.

This post was last modified: Sat May 17, 2008 08:10 AM by Mongol Servant.

Amen, Brother.. By the way, as you, and I pray all Bible-believers on this website know, we are exhorted to earnestly contend for the faith...Glory to God. I pray you'll have a wonderful Lord's Day tomorrow...

James and Chuck, I have about had it with the completely unnecessary and volatile responses that you two have given about people who are absolutely strangers to you. Can either of you name ONE of the professors that GreekTim has sat under during his schooling? Have either of you researched the position that his college takes on the text? Based on what he has said in the many posts that he has made here, the college used the KJB as its text. It was only after he graduated that he personally decided to switch. I would agree that this was a mistake, but how can you think that you have such knowledge that you can determine what is true without getting the facts?

James said:

James, do you have any proof that this is in fact true?

Chuck said:

Chuck, without doing any searching right now, do you know what college GreekTim attended? If you do, do you know where it stands on the text?

With attacks like this, you guys are no help to the cause for the purity of the KJB! Contend without being contentious! I am ashamed.

This post was last modified: Sun May 18, 2008 12:40 AM by Brother Tim.

Bro Tim,
I'm aghast at your reply. What began as discussion on how bad the pseudo-Baptist forum "FFF" is, was hijacked by GT into another "KJV vs. scholarly research" debate. Bros Jim, George, Chuck, and myself, had had enough of it, and said so.

GT keeps running down this "scholarly" road, with a view towards "helping correct these illiterate KJBO's." He even indicated to Bro George, that if we wanted to negate this type discussion, that the mods should change the SOF to indicate that we are KJBO. I think he's right! Bro George even indicated that NONE of these "scholarly" arguments are going to change ANYONE here, so what's the purpose?

In answering your questions, regarding GT's professors - lets let him answer:

GT's post #14 on the "Why I use the KJ" thread:
"My school, Piedmont Baptist Collge & Graduate School, did a little in textual criticism in one of my Greek classes (undergrad). But no mss was taught to be authoritative, however we learned different philosophies in textual criticism...."

GT's post #20 on the "Why I use the KJ" thread:
"The difference is that more info and data has been uncovered since then that has helped to give increase the semantical domain of words."

GT's post #218 on the "Inspiration/Preservation" thread:
"I am opposed to this position (KJVO) because it places the authority of a translation over the originally inspired text of Scriptures. The KJVO position leads to a place that I am not willing to go. It leads to a place that I do not believe God wanted Christians to go. When I got to Bible college, my freshman year I decided to write a paper on the issue. That placed a foundation of the KJVO position is flawed. But my professors were not KJVO. They never have been nor has PBC ever been KJVO The more I learned at Bible college (i.e. mss variants, proper translation philosophy, & Greek) the more I realized that not only was the KJVO position flawed, but the KJV itself was flawed (my opinion). I found places that lacked any mss support at all & other places that only had a few mss supports for a certain reading. That just solidified for me even more that the TR was inadequate to portray 100% accurately what the inspired originals contained albeit it was close though."

Now, neither GT, nor ANY of his professors have seen these "inspired originals", so how does he KNOW these mss are close? Hmmmm.....

Continuing with GT's post #218 on the "Inspiration/Preservation" thread:

"I will also say that it (KJVO) limits the people to depth of understanding God’s Word. Limiting yourself to a translation means that you are not dealing with the study of the original languages. You see that as ok whereas I see that as very limited in understanding the writer’s emphasis. If we want to have a better understanding of the text, then we should not limit ourselves to a translation that is unable to fully convey all of the nuances of the original language it was translated from."

Now, Bro Tim, you mentioned use of "volatile language". Tell me what this is:
GT's post #103, of this (FFF) thread:

"The problem is, you guys can give it but you can't & won't take it."

Now, in conclusion, we were looking for a proper response to the information we provided (Why I Use the KJB), on the beliefs we, as KJB Belivers, were led to by the Holy Spirit versus what others may have been led to believe by "scholars". We're still waiting

This post was last modified: Sun May 18, 2008 08:25 AM by Mongol Servant.

James, your last statement is "We're still waiting." Yet GreekTim has been told not to carry on the debate against the KJB anymore. You even say as much in your first paragraph.

You have quoted GreekTim's position and beliefs. I never said that his college was KJBO, only that it used the KJB. Again, no indication is given that his professors discredited the KJB. That may be true, but nothing that he posted can show that. The only fact that can be drawn from the above quotes is that they did what most teachers do in college, put out an array of information and then allow the students to investigate.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think that there are very many colleges out there that are properly equipping young Christians as they should. There needs to be a renewed look at the mentoring of young men within the local church as a recognized "higher" education, rather than the college setting, especially when it relates to pastoring.

I still think that you and Chuck are being too abrasive. And by the way, it was I who first "hijacked" this thread.

GreekTim is wrong in his opinion about the English Scriptures. The KJB is the pure, inerrant Word of God. It is the absolute Scriptures. As long as anyone rejects this, their ministry will always lack the full power of God's Spirit. However, I have never seen anyone's mind and heart changed with your approach to the debate.

Bro. Tim, Yes I do know what college GreekTim went to (I researched it when he joined). It is liberal and non-KJB.

And the verse says to "earnestly" contend for the faith.

Webster's 1828 - EARNESTLY, adv. ern'estly. Warmly; zealously; importunately; eagerly; with real desire.

I, by the stand that God has given me, will in no way compromise with these folks that deny the very Word of God. We must stand firmly and resolutely on God's inerrant Word, without apology. By all means, we are to show the love of Christ shed abroad in our hearts. We show the love of God by declaring what the Word of God says to a lost and dying people and by restoring the brethren that are overtaken in a fault. I post because I love people. I witness because I love people. If you love people you'll tell them the truth.

Mongol Servant, A-M-E-N!!!!!!!
In Christ my Saviour,
Bro. Chuck

Bro Tim, surely you can see that GT has continued the "debate against the KJB" here in this thread, even though he ceased in the other thread.

Bro Tim, I appreciate your "balance" in debating scriptural issues, and have enjoyed much of your information thus far. That being said, I highly doubt (not limiting God, by any means) that any type of "scholarly" debate, is going to change anyone's heart and mind, when they are dead set against it, as is GT. His attitude is "My mind is made up - don't confuse me with the facts."
Then too, why isn't he responding to this in the 1st place? Hmmm.....

Bro Chuck: Thanks, and Lord Bless - earnestly contend, my Brother!

This post was last modified: Mon May 19, 2008 06:39 AM by Mongol Servant.

James, we KJBOs are known for arguing over the jots and tittles, so I am going to do so here. You are charging GreekTim falsely about reintroducing the text debate in this thread.

I, not GreekTim, continued to bring up the text issue. I did so as a jab at him during our discussion about the so-called "Great Tribulation". If you will take the time to re-read the posts in this thread, you will find that it was I who introduced the change in topic, and that it was I who introduced and continued to bring up the flaws in the MVs. At one point, early in the thread, GT even indicated that he was hesitant to bring up the issue again.

You also are asking why he hasn't responded. Perhaps if every time you posted something, someone else beat you over the head about everything from your upbringing to what you had for breakfast [absurdity for emphasis], you might decide just to keep quiet.

George (who disdains "smilies" so I don't know if he is serious or not) says, "Perhaps he will overload and self-destruct?" GreekTim knows when I am joking, but George has not in the past indicated such. How would you take this statement?

Chuck jumps on GreekTim and Nate (who had already been run off by the abuse), and accuses them of changing the subject, which again, I am the one who did.

You, in one of the earlier posts TWICE challenged GT to respond to the text issue in another thread, while at the same time saying, "you went whinnin' like a little school girl". You, then, were the next and only other person who is bringing the issue up here. Why did you not simply do so in that other thread after asking Jim's permission for GreekTim to freely speak?!

GreekTim is wrong in his view of preservation and translation. He may or may not have been influenced by his professors. If they did so, do you not think that the Holy Spirit could use wise and kindly-spoken words from those who know the truth to change his mind and heart back to the truth? Must he be treated as an enemy who must be defeated rather than a weaker brother who needs guidance?

James, in one of your recent newsletters, you spoke of Erdene's earnest attempt to convert her friend through "force". You said, "...we explained the need for giving the gospel out, but that The Lord does the saving!" Is this not just as much His responsibility?

George, Chuck, and James, I don't question your sincerity for the faith. I only am concerned that your methods can do more harm than good.

Brothers, brothers, brothers...let us discontinue the in-fighting here. All of us are correct in certain aspects of this debate. The quotes from Greektim have been shown and I believe shown in the context of his representation of the translation of the Bible.

Certainly I have been rather gruff as to the disbelief of the King James Bible yet I shall continue to defend it until my dying day.

We have had in the past a number of people who have joined this site merely to attempt to convince us that we are wrong about our stance on the beloved King James Bible through their scholarship and man's intellect. Each of them has gone their own way because they are fighting a fight which cannot be won here.

(Emphasis Mine)

Do you not believe Brothers that attempting to speak reason and truth to such an one is beating against the air? I certainly do. It is akin to shadow boxing. We cannot prevail until the shadow leaves with the light. The light is the important thing that we must not lose track of.

Jesus is that light we must never lose sight of. Jesus also said, "(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

You see Brothers we must keep our eyes on that light. I believe that we are in a time when The Lord will come back soon. We must be ready. If you recall in the gospel of John when Jesus rose from the dead there was no one there. He had told everyone that on the Third Day He would rise again yet no one was waiting. Shall we not be waiting again this time? I say no.

Let us stop the bickering that is among brethren. I publicly apologize for any fuel that I may have added to the fire. I sincerely believe that we of like mind must stick together. We have so many gifted men here. God has given us gifts that are unsurpassed. We must use them for good and not for doing any harm as was mentioned previously. We must not cause divisions among the brethren. Please recall the following:

(emphasis mine)

Let us each (including me) recall these aspects of the fruit of the Spirit and apply them as meant.

In Christ,
George

Thank you George (& Bro.Tim); I introduced this site to GT (my son of whom I'm very proud) to build his to argumentative skills and to research his 'Fundamentalist' stances. I'll not fight his fights for him as he has shown he is quite capable; but I will stand by his side and take a few arrows & darts if need be!!

I probably should send this though your 'priv. mail' but Greek Timothy [yes named after Paul's special friend (KJB, AV, TR)(II Tim.1:2)], like many of us are a 'Prodigal Son' who chose that college on his own with the Holy Spirits leading which has an outstanding fundamental, Bible curriculum.
I enjoy this site myself for much of its content but my hackles were stiffening alittle before your rebut!! I hope he (GT) comes back soon!! Thanx again.

Its amazin' that it took all this to get out my first post, my apologies!!

This post was last modified: Mon May 19, 2008 06:14 PM by ChuckieTrout.

Let me reiterate that there was no abuse pointed toward Nate. The people on the boards often have no awareness of what is going on behind the scenes. If I recall correctly I PM'ed him and used the word "gentle" in my message. Perhaps I am incorrect but I do not save copies of my PM's.

Brother Jim was also rather gentle with him. You see, often standing for the faith and what we believe in comes across as harsh or unforgiving. That is not the case. Look at the following which has been quoted in part here previously:

We must take a serious look at what this verse is telling us. Look at the time period in which it was written. In was in the 1st Century AD. From what we can tell it was most likely written in the mid part of that century. That tells us that the faith in which this verse speaks is the true faith that was delivered by Jesus Christ Himself.

Therefore we must strive for and earnestly contend for the faith that is taught to us through God's Holy Word and the illumination of the Holy Spirit of God. I believe that faith to be taught through the King James Bible. I will also state without any reservation that I believe any of the "modern versions' of the Bible are at best watered down and do not point one to that true and pure faith.

In Christ,
George

I am as ardent an OKJV as anyone out there, but can I ask a question?

Can someone please show me where GT's doctrine was wrong?

I may have missed some heretical view of his, but can someone please find it?

I am not being sarcastic at all.

Love in Christ,

Jim

I think debate and discussion as they are commonly understood are fine. The problem I have found with the FFF tends to be the bad attitude with which things are discussed and debated. Its like the right position is determined by how much you foam at the mouth.

Some topics and people I just won't debate with because a bad attitude just seems inherent in most people's make up in those areas, not all, but a lot:

1. Calvinists
2. Mac Users

I tend to agree with mnwickens, there is a sense of terrible attitudes by the majority of the posts that I've read myself at the FFF. As I stated before in this thread, I will not return and I will give a warning to all those that seek "fellowship" with Christians on the 'net, to stay far away from that site. Calvinists are (not all, but the ones that I've contended with) studious and very proud spiritually. This seems odd because they are of a notion that they could not even refuse to partake of the gift of God, that God forced it on them. I'm so glad that God didn't want robots but in His divine wisdom and goodness, He gave mankind volition! Hallelujah!
In Christ by His grace,
Bro. Chuck